Volume 20 Number 12
                       Produced: Tue Jun 20  8:03:41 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Abortion and a Ben Noach
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Administrivia, quiet time and mail-jewish picnic
         [Avi Feldblum]
Co-ed schools
         [Alan Mizrahi]
         [Dan Biber]
Derech Eretz in Boys only classes
         [Alana Suskin]
Fish, Fowl Meat
         [Danny Skaist]
Info on a Hechsher
         [Sam Saal]
Kosher Products
         [Edwin Levi]
Meat, Yom Tov Sheni, Marrying off Daughters
         [Ari Z. Zivotofsky]
Quail (bird, not politician)
         [Yaacov Dovid Shulman]


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 09:45:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Abortion and a Ben Noach

:Does anybody know what the final ruling is on this one?  That is, does
:the halacha (at least, in theory) forbid Bnei Noach to abort fetuses?
:Please support your answer with a specific citation.

'Shofech Dam Ha'Adam B'Adam Damo Yishshafech'
'He who spills the blood of a man in man, his blood shall be spilled.'
(Verse in the book of Genesis)

This pasuk was said to all of mankind after the flood.
Man in man is understood to include the unborn.



From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 19:12:47 -0400
Subject: Administrivia, quiet time and mail-jewish picnic

Hello All,

I will try and get a bunch of stuff out today (Tuesday) and then expect
a quiet spell until after Shabbat. As things stand currently, I hope and
expect to back on a regular posting schedule next week. I will probably
also get the time to respond to some of your mail messages to me, as
well as to backlogged items.

I'll put out another notice about the mail-jewish BBQ (in Highland Park,
NJ on July 9) next week with more details, but if you are thinking about
coming, I would appreciate if you dropped me an email line. This will
help in planning the event. Thanks in advance, and we now return you to
your previously scheduled programming.

Avi Feldblum


From: Alan Mizrahi <amizrahi@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:30:11 EDT
Subject: Co-ed schools

I have just caught up on a few months' worth of mail-jewish and would
like to share my thoughts about co-ed schools.  They are not based in
Halachah, just my observations of a school in my hometown.

There is one yeshiva high school (that i did not attend) where i live
which has a boys' division and a girls' division which are essentially
two separate schools.  The boys and girls are in different buildings,
have restricted hours on when they can walk on certain streets, visit
various Jewish establishments in town, etc.  Those who dorm essentially
never see anyone of the opposite gender....Theoretically.

Everyone in town knows that the students of this school sneak out and
have "secret" rendez-vous with those the school forbids them to see.
Those who are caught get expelled, but I would guess that many more get
away with it then are caught.  

What are we teaching these kids?  That it is ok to see/talk to members
of the opposite gender as long as they don't get caught?  The
administration of the school knows about it, yet does nothing to try to
discourage it (other than expel offenders).  They are very concerned
that a boy and a girl from the school might be in the same restaurant at
the same time.  Instead, they should be trying to change what's causing
the kids to do this.

The reason is fairly obvious.  The school devotes a lot of time and
energy into making sure the boys and girls don't see each other.  Isn't
it natural that they should want to know what's so important that they
don't see.  I also think it is just natural for boys and girls to
interact.  However, the school is unwilling to admit that.  They'd
rather let the boys and girls sneak off unsupervised to do whatever they
want than have supervised activities where they can interact in a
halachic way.

I also maintain that the concerns Ari Shapiro raised (thinking about
women, touching, hugging and kissing, etc.) do not mandate single gender
schools, in light of what is happening at this school (and probably
others).  It is obvious that the boys are thinking about the girls since
they devise plans to sneak out and see them.  I fail to see how hugging
and kissing could take place in a classroom, whereas when the kids are
off alone, who knows what could happen.  (Actually, I do know.  I have
heard first-hand accounts of such activities, and worse.)  It seem to me
that these things would be less likely to happen in a situation where
being with members of the opposite gender is normal, rather then making
the others a big mystery to think about excessively and pursue.

I think the leaders of the school in question are overlooking the big
picture.  They have focused on one halacha and totally blinded
themselves to everything else.  Aside from what i mentionned, there are
financial problems to maintaining a separate school.  It is a very small
school, with classes as few as 4 people in some cases.  It was such a
burden on the school that the boys division was closed recently.

Another problem is that the school was not serving the needs of the
community.  It was serving only a few people (most of which were
teachers at the school, many of whom sent their kids elsewhere anyway).
The result was that many people sent their kids to public school.  Is it
right to drive people away from yeshiva.  I think rather than saying
co-ed is forbidden, we should let each community decide what is best for

Alan Mizrahi

P.S. I will be away from my account for about 6 weeks, so I won't be able
     to respond to anyone's comments/objections to this post.


From: <DBiber@...> (Dan Biber)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 14:40:08 -0400
Subject: Cosmetics

Ncoom Gilba writes: " Cosmetics stem from an attempt to cover oneself
up, to present oneself as other than one actually is or looks.  Except
for exceptional cases of disease or deformity, the urge usually comes
from a Western dissatisfaction with oneself, a desire to look more like
HER.  I think this contradicts a basic value of Shabat.  No, we do not
try to change the world on Shabat. Once a week we kick back and
appreciate the beauty of the world as the Holy One Blessed Be He created
it.  Once a week maybe you blessed women should not paint yourselves up
to beat the band, should diverge yourself of your insecurities and
inferiority complexes upon which so much of Western Consumerism stands,
and ppreciate yourselves as the beautiful God-created creatures that you

Maybe cosmetics have no place not only on Shabbas but perhaps at any
other times as well.  Maybe we men migh act more responsibly and be
accepting of women without demanding -- either wittingly or unwittingly,
knowingly or unknowingly -- that they conform to our standards.  If
women "paint...up to beat the band..(and manifest) insecurities and
inferiority complexes..."  it is perhaps the case that we men have
created the social world in which this "'hillul" is not only possible or
even permissible, but desirable as well.

Hag Sameach


From: Alana Suskin <alanacat@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 17:18:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Derech Eretz in Boys only classes

Excuse me, but what a bunch of bs. Boys are NOT innately more energetic 
destructive, etc. Nor are girls innately less so. Time after time it has 
been shown empirically that behavioral gender difference is a product of 
environment. In other words, the fact that you were a little vandal in 
your all boys school was not a result of your being male. It was a result 
of you being 1) allowed to get away with it (after all, boys will be 
boys, right?) 2) being given a nudge, nudge, wink, wink about what is 
proper behavior for boys. If (in single or coed schools _and_ at home) 
boys were told that they were expected to behave in a genteel manner, 
that boorishness was completely unacceptable (no nudge, nudge, wink, wink 
about it) and that there would be strong repercussions for any behavior 
that was assaultive, destructive or generally hooligan-like and everyone 
followed through on this, I guarantee that sexual assaults and 
gender-based violence would go way down in this country.
I don't think that your stories were funny at all.



From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 95 10:09 IST
Subject: Fish, Fowl Meat

>Andy Goldfinger
>To the best of my knowlege, the treatment of fowl as meat (fleishig) is
>a Rabbinic enactment (i.e. it would be parve on a d'oraisa (Torah)
>level).  Yet, it this week's Torah portion, we find G-d giving the
>Jewish people quail in response to their demand for "basar" (meat).
>Certainly, the chumash is "d'oraisa."  How can these be reconciled?

Basar is "Flesh" not "meat". They wanted "flesh", fish and fowl are also
flesh.  "We remember the fish which we did eat in Egypt...[Num
11:5]. and "...or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered for
them.. [Num 11:22]

They wanted "flesh" and would have settled for fish.

:-) Even though the Ashkenazi joke says "v'haof lo basar" [Gen 15:10]  :-)



From: Sam Saal <saal@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 08:02:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Info on a Hechsher

I recently saw the following Kashruth certicifation on a package
of Pathmark brand hotdogs. Does anyone know who provides this
certification? How about a phone number I can call to look into

\     /
 \ k /    Vaad HaKashruth
N \ / J   of North Jersey

The symbol is a large V with N&J around it and a k inside.

Sam Saal       <saal@...>
Vayiphtach HaShem et Peah haAtone


From: Edwin Levi <76360.2602@...>
Date: 19 Jun 95 16:17:43 EDT
Subject: Kosher Products

I understand that in Europe, unlike in the United States, kosher
packaged products do not bear a mark (such as ou, kof-k star-k etc) to
denote a kosher product. Nevertheless, there is supervision, but one
must know which products are on the approved list.

Can anyone on your network direct me to where I could obtain a copy of
the list or lists. I intend to do some travelling within Europe during
the next few years and would find this information very helpful. Bear in
mind that I am not as interested in restaurants or Jewish Community
Centers since this information is much more readily available.

Thanks. All replies should be to <76360.2602@...>


From: <azz@...> (Ari Z. Zivotofsky)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 10:30:13 -0400
Subject: Meat, Yom Tov Sheni, Marrying off Daughters

Brief comments on three issues recently raised:

1) someone pointed out an apparent contradiction between the fact that
when bnei yisrael asked for meat, God gave them fowl, yet in meat and
milk laws fowl is biblically not meat. There is no contradiction. Meat
can have different meanings, even biblically, depending on the context.
Meat and milk laws are derived from a pasuk talking about cooking a kid
in its mother's milk. Hence there is an opinion that even a chayah, such
as a deer, would not be biblically prohibited. This does not mean that
according to that opinion it is not meat. The definition is context
sensitive, Thus, meat in the desert, meat as a requireement on yom tov,
meat not mixing with milk and meat as part of a vow could all have
different definitions.

2) yom tov sheni today is observed purely as minhag avosanu. What will
be with the third beis hamikdash is not relevant and not known. I am
reminded of Lord Mountbatton's quote "If the third world war is fought
with nuclear weapons, the forth will be fought with bows and arrows." We
cannot know what the situation will be when the third mikdash is built,
we can only observe the minhag as is and when, bimharah byamanu the
third mikdash is built we will all be able to observe one day, in
Isreal (if not sooner).

3) Someone objected to Rabbi Teitz's suggestion that new husbands at the
wedding agree to give up their right to marry off their daughters. He
said this was making a condition on something the Torah permiited. I
personally think Rabbi Teitz's idea was one of the best suggestions so
far. The objection is simply not valid. Just because the Torah permits
something does not mean we must avail ourselves of it. Although the
Torah permits meat one may surely take a vow to not have meat every
other Tues (assuming it is not Yom tov). THis is not what is meant by
that principle.


From: <YacovDovid@...> (Yaacov Dovid Shulman)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 00:56:09 -0400
Subject: Quail (bird, not politician)

Andy Goldfinger asked why G-d sent quail when the Jews asked for meat,
since bird meat is not, in Hebrew, technically "meat."

The Chizkuni says that G-d sent the birds from the sea so that the Jews
would have two desires sated.  The birds had fed on fish, and so they
tasted both of meat and of fish.

Incidentally, Hagaon Hachassid Mivilna, a work about the Vilna Gaon,
quotes Kadmut Sefer Hazohar, by the Radal, as saying that at the siyum
(celebratory meal) of his Commentary on the Tikunei Zohar (others say it
was on the Sifra Detzniusa), those present ate of "a fatted bird sent to
them from heaven."
 Rav Avraham Yitzchak Kook had a tradition that this bird was a quail
(quoted as being from Igrot Harayah, I, p. 168) (Hagaon...p. 254, 377).


End of Volume 20 Issue 12