Volume 20 Number 15
                       Produced: Sun Jun 25  9:54:10 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

220V Appliances and other Aliyah Preparations
         [Jeffrey Woolf]
Advice sought on buying 220V appliances
         [Warren Burstein]
Engagement--Rebecca Willer and Shimon Schwartz
         [S.H. Schwartz]
Grape Harvest in Israel
         [Danny Skaist]
Harvesting of Grapes
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Jewish Government over the Ages
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Netah Rev'ei
         [David Kramer]
Quail - meat?
         [Yechezkel Schatz]
Quail as "Meat"
         [Arthur Roth]
Spies/Grape harvest
         [Myron Chaitovsky]
Telling the Truth on Usenet Groups
         [Carl Sherer]


From: Jeffrey Woolf <F12043@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 16:45:03 IDT
Subject: 220V Appliances and other Aliyah Preparations

On the question of 220V appliances, I can only speak from my own
experience. First, on the question of big-ticket items. American
appliances are still far too large for Israeli apts and houses. So, I
strongly advise NOT to buy your fridge, stove, dish washer and clothes
drier in the US. Buy them here with rights. They work better and are
country appropriate. Next. As far as a washing machine is concerned,
this is a real dilemma. Your usual Maytag or Whirlpool will wash more,
but less well since hot water is often limited. Israeli machines wash
better but take forever. So I'd go with the American. My prejudice about
driers is that you should buy a gas and not all electric. Electricity is
FAR FAR FAR too expensive to get an all-electric model (as I mistakenly
did)....Small appliances like TV etc you can get there easily. I advise
you get any computer stuff there, especially modems or software....Now
I'll volunteer a word on furniture.
 It used to be that Israel had no middle class furniture. So people
shlepped their houses. Today there is GOOD reasonably priced furniture
made for Israeli housing (even houses are small by US standards). My
advice? Sell as much as you can, save the extra shipping and buy new
here saving absolute costs as well as VAT. We regret having brought alot
of our stuff and having helped make Strand rich...Finally, I must
recommend against buying in a certain Lower East Side (NYC ) store whose
name is made up of letters. The person in charge is totally out of touch
with what you need here. Finally, don't be spooked. Even in the present
climate. Israel is the only place for a Jew to be. Good Luck and Klita
                                                        Jeffrey Woolf


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:44:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Advice sought on buying 220V appliances

There's a mailing list to discuss Aliya issues (such as 220V
appliances), <tachlis@...>

Subscribe to it just like you subscribed to mail-jewish, send a
message to <listproc@...> saying
    sub tachlis your-first-name your-last-name

I'd like to suggest that Tachlis is the correct place to discuss
purely practical questions of Aliya, and that religious discussions on
the Tachlis list should be moved to this list.

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


From: <shimmy@...> (S.H. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:16:59 -0700
Subject: Engagement--Rebecca Willer and Shimon Schwartz

Rebecca Willer and Shimon Schwartz take great pleasure in sharing with you
our engagement as Sunday, June 18, 1995.

The kallah is a lawyer with the New York State Education Department,
overseeing vocational and trade schools.  The chatan is a member of
technical staff at NYNEX Science and Technology, currently doing process
modeling and re-engineering.  Both are currently living on the Upper
West Side of Manhattan.

May the One who guides the ongoing activity of the world help us to
build a bayit ne'eman b'Yisrael.

                Shimon Schwartz
                <shimmy@...>  (home)
                <schwartz@...>  (work)


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 10:25 IST
Subject: Grape Harvest in Israel

>Jonathan Katz
>However, looking at the plain meaning of the verses in the Torah shows
>that the spies were not in Israel at this time. It says clearly that
>they were in Israel at "the time of the harvesting of the grapes" (to
>paraphrase roughly) which is _after_ 9 Av. So, if this is indeed true,
>there is no way they could have come out of Israel (or told the people
>what they saw) on 9 Av.

Go to the market [in Israel]. There are grapes for sale, they have been
there for a week. The torah dosn't say "the time of the harvesting of
the grapes" but the time of the "bikurim" of the grapes. The very
beginning of the harvest i.e now, started about 40 days before 9th Av.

As I heard from the Rav in my neighborhood, who said it in the name of
his father, the first grapes always arrive in the Israeli markets the
week of parshat Shlach. (This was before grapes were grown in the Jordan



From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:40:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Harvesting of Grapes

I believe this question is based on an erroneous translation of the 
posuk.  It says they were there during the "ripening of the grapes".  
"Bikkurei" means ripening, not harvesting.

Kol Tuv,


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Jewish Government over the Ages

:i.e. halel. But the "memshala" aspect, the current government and it's
:policies, well... :-)

I would like to remind everyone that during most of the time that the 2 
Temples stood the government in Israel was anti-religious (Well, I should 
say anti-Judaism). The policies of Menashe, his son Amon, etc, from the 
Judean kingdom, and those of most of the kings (if not all of them) from the 
Samarian kingdom, were no better than those of Mr. Peres...

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://haven.ios.com/~likud/steinber/
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: <DTK1950@...> (David Kramer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 01:59:46 -0400
Subject: Netah Rev'ei

Now that my mourning doves have grown and flown away, I have to turn my
attention to other issues of the kosher suburban gardener.  I have a
peach tree that I planted four years ago.  Thank G-d it is a very
productive fourth year and, with the help of fertilizer, it looks like
I'll have a bumper crop.  I am trying to determine if there is any
restrictions outside of Israel today with these fourth year fruits
(Netah Rev'ei).  From the theoretical viewpoint (at least theoreticl to
me) , are there restrictions in Israel today?  In the time of the temple
the fruit or monetary equivalent was taken to be eaten in Jerusalem.
Does that mean all the fruit or a token amount?

On a related agricultural issue, I am always confused as to which plants
require waiting the three years.  Clearly trees and grape vines the
halacha of Orla applies.  What about other woody vines, such as
blackberries or rasberries or kiwis (yes there is a grape-like fruit
that grows in USA called a kiwi)? What about roots that continue to grow
year after year below ground like horseradish?  Well then what about
perreniel plants that regenerate every year from the dead plant like

Last but toughest question.  I know that grafting of two varieties of
fruit trees is not allowed because of Kilayim. I have seen for sale
trees that include three varieties of apples that have been grafted into
one tree.  Is this considered Kilayim? Can I buy such a tree if I didn't
do the grafting?  What are considered two varieties halachacly?  A red
with a yellow apple?  How about a red with a different red (macintosh
and delicious)?  Can I do that type of grafting myself say a freestone
peach with another variety?

My Rabbi once mentioned that you can make a Shehechiyanu if you eat a
new variety of apple even if you ate an apple the day before.  Does this
imply that the two apples are considered different from the standpoint
of Kilayim???

Hurry up with the answers, the peaches are growing bigger and juicier by
the day!

David Kramer


From: Yechezkel Schatz <lpschatz@...>
Date: 25 Jun 1995 09:29:23 +0200
Subject: Quail - meat?

Andy Goldfinger asked why G-d sent quail when the Jews asked for meat,
since bird meat is not considered "meat", and is halachically considered
"fleischig" only beacause of a takkanah.

 The pasuk says "thou shalt not eat a kid in it's mother's milk".  Birds
are not mammals, and do not produce milk, therefore they do not fit into
the category of what is "min HaTorah" prohibited for eating with milk
  On the other hand fowl meat does resemble the meat of mammals, so when
Bnei Yisrael asked for meat, G-d saw fit to send them quail.  Any other
type of organism would have been much harder to supply in the Sinai
desert.  Note that Moshe asks G-d "will sheep and cattle be slaughtered
for them? or will all the fish of the sea be gathered for them and
suffice?"  (not very exact translation, done on the spot).  One could
say that Moshe considers fish to be "meat" too.  For the same reason,
its resemblance to the flesh of mammals, fowl meat was added to the
prohibition of eating meat and milk together, as a Takkanah by Chaza"l.


From: <rotha@...> (Arthur Roth)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:12:31 -0500
Subject: Quail as "Meat"

Andy Goldfinger asks:
> To the best of my knowlege, the treatment of fowl as meat (fleishig) is
> a Rabbinic enactment (i.e. it would be parve on a d'oraisa (Torah)
> level).  Yet, it this week's Torah portion, we find G-d giving the
> Jewish people quail in response to their demand for "basar" (meat).
> Certainly, the chumash is "d'oraisa."  How can these be reconciled?

Danny Skaist replies:
> Basar is "Flesh" not "meat". They wanted "flesh", fish and fowl are also
> flesh.  "We remember the fish which we did eat in Egypt...[Num
> 11:5]. and "...or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered for
> them.. [Num 11:22]
> They wanted "flesh" and would have settled for fish.
> :-) Even though the Ashkenazi joke says "v'haof lo basar" [Gen 15:10]  :-)

Let me add that the Almighty purposely sent a type of flesh that is NOT
defined as "meat" at a Torah level.  Since the Jews had just received
the Torah (and in particular the mitzvah of shechita and the
prohibitions against neveila and tereifa), Torah level "meat" would have
been prohibited to eat if the animals had been found dead or wounded,
and it would have taken far too much time and effort to shecht even if
animals had arrived alive and healthy.  Besides, the resources for
shechita in the dessert were probably very limited or nonexistent.
However, Rabbinic law had not yet been enacted by that time, so that
birds did not require shechita (or have problems with neveila and
tereifa), making things easy on everyone.  Indeed, when Hashem earlier
disclosed to Moshe that He would shortly provide meat for everyone for a
month, one of Moshe's reactions was concern about the newly acquired
mitzvah of shechita, so he replied, "Hatzon u'vakar yishachet lahem?",
meaning, "Will sheep and cows be SHECHTED for them?"

Regarding Danny's Ashkenazi joke, the phrase in Genesis begins with the
word "v'hatzipor" rather than "v'haof".  Also, the last word is "vasar"
(no dagesh in the first letter) rather than "basar", for straightforward
grammatical reasons.  These corrections do not affect the essence of the
joke, though.


From: <MCHAIT.BROOKLAW@...> (Myron Chaitovsky)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:43 EST
Subject: Spies/Grape harvest

Jonatan Katz's query in 20:13 is answered by Sforno. Moshe wanted the
spies to brig back fruit. As these ripen at different times,the spies
brought some that were bikkurim ie small,not yet mature,and other,full
grown fruit. Given the size of the grape bough they carried,these
immature grapes were really something.


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 22:58:25 IDT
Subject: Telling the Truth on Usenet Groups

As those of you on this list who frequent the Tachlis list know I'm a
rather active contributor on that list (for the unaware, Tachlis is a
list for those who plan or have made aliya to get "tachlis" type
information about making aliya).  We recently had an incident where
someone logged in from an internet account belonging to a shipper and
sent something which reflected poorly on another shipper.  This leads me
to the following question:

Especially in the areas of shippers and 220v appliance suppliers (and in
other areas as well) we have some very open and frank discussions of who
is "good" or "reliable" and more importantly, who is not and should be
avoided.  I understand that there is a heter in Hilchos Lashon Hara to
warn someone away from a business transaction when you are asked and
when it is necessary to help prevent that person from entering into an
unwise transaction.  My question is, does the fact that the warning is
being given in front of 300 people on an internet user group (many of
whom are likely to be looking for exactly the same information) change
that heter? Is it permitted to post such comments as "Shipper x did not
pack someone's lift properly" or "Appliance dealer y gave someone I know
ten year old appliances" in response to questions asking for advice
about shippers and appliances?  Assume for argument's sake that there is
absolutely no question about the truth of these statements, e.g. I have
a letter from Shipper x or appliance dealer y admitting the act.

Any comments would be appreciated as would sources.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


End of Volume 20 Issue 15