Volume 20 Number 20
                       Produced: Mon Jun 26 23:14:02 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - Mail-Jewish Picnic
         [Avi Feldblum]
Agudath Israel on child brides
         [Martin Friederwitzer]
Child Marriages
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Havdala under the stars
         [Burton Joshua]
Incandescent and Fluorescent Light Bulbs for Havdalah
         [David Charlap]
M.A. about Names
         [Shlomo H. Pick]
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Negiah and Doctors
         [Tova Taragin]
Wife and Mother: Same Names?
         [Gedaliah Friedenberg]
Wife with name of mother
         [Arnold Roth]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:06:38 -0400
Subject: Administrivia - Mail-Jewish Picnic

This is another in the series of postings about the forthcoming third or
fourth bi-annual mail-jewish picnic/BBQ. The BBQ will be held in
Highland Park, right now I am leaning toward my back yard, unless anyone
in Highland Park with a bigger backyard wants to come forward and

Date: Sunday July 9th
Time: 4:00 - 8:00 pm (How does that sound for a time?)
Cost: Still need to figure it out, it will just be to cover costs, I
would guess about $7.00 per adult and $4.00 per kid, but once I price
stuff out I will get back with a better estimate.

Please let me know if you are thinking about coming. I do not need hard
reservations, but I do need some sort of general idea to know how much
food to buy.

I'm looking forward to seeing both familiar and new faces, come and meet
in person the people you have been reading, replying to etc.

Avi Feldblum


From: <martin.friederwitzer@...> (Martin Friederwitzer)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 95 19:12:12 EST
Subject: Agudath Israel on child brides

We were stunned and shaken at the outrage committed in the Jewish
community by unprincipled men who have brazenly utilized the procedure
of "betrothal of a minor daughter" to inflict pain and misery upon their
wives, resorting to all sorts of underhanded stratagems. They have thus
compounded the larger tragedy -- the abandonment of spouses and
breakdown of families -- that has afflicted us of late. How dreadful the
pain to both the woman and her daughter! And how dreadful the sin of
violating the honor of Torah, making its laws the object of public
mockery and degradation!

        Even as those guilty of this desecration wrap themselves in the
cloak of halacha, they pervert its very intent. The entire concept of a
"betrothal of a minor" is rooted in compassion; by providing a father
with this authority, the Torah imposes upon him the responsibility to
act in [his minor daughter's] welfare, in consonance with a fathers
healthy and natural compassion for his children. One, though, who
exploits the Torah's laws, and his own daughter, using them as weapons
for his own advantage -- and compounds his iniquity by utilizing secrecy
-- corrupts the "Torah of kindness," converting it into a rule of
viciousness and cruelty; [such a father] is a malevolent person who had
desecrated the sacred and debased the word of G-d.

        We cannot remain silent in the face of this scourge that has
stuck our camp, even if only in isolated cases. And so, we have made our
words public, to strongly denounce these offenders, and any who
collaborate with them, who have wrought a profanation of G-d's Name and
defamation of His Torah.

        They should be exposed and then scornfully distanced from the
community until they fully repent and reverse their actions, removing
the disgrace from Hashems nation. And may He, blessed be He, repair with
mercy the breaches of His nation Israel.

24 Sivan,5755 (June 22, 1995)
The above was a "Kruei Daas" of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of America

 Moishe Friederwitzer


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:33 O
Subject: Re: Child Marriages

      There was an article in this weekends HaTzofeh indicating that
Haifa Chief Rabbi Shear Yashuv HaKohen has been called upon by members
of The American Rabbinate to help resolve the problem of Child
marriages. The article claims that in Israel the court would throw the
father in prison until he revealed the facts. Rav She'ar Yashuv also
suggested that this is one instance that Hazal would have approved of
annulment (Afkinan kedushin mineh) since it could lead to widespread
problems. I have yet to see anything in the Halakhic literature, but I
have a feeling that if it has already hit the newspapers here, a written
ruling is not far off.  Let's pray it's sooner than later.
      I move to NASA for two months as of July 3rd.  Thereafter write me
at                    <frimer@...>
            Kol Tuv     Aryeh


From: Burton Joshua <ftburton@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:40:11 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Havdala under the stars

Ahron Einhorn writes:
> Several posts in vol. 20 #9 discussed the differences between
> incandescent and fluorescent light bulbs for havdalah. I would like to
> point out that the sefer chasmal behalach has a discussion on the
> subject of lightbulbs for havdala.  There is a reference in one of the
> footnotes to a shita that one can use the stars(probably if a candle is
> not available). The source of light from stars are plasmas (which some
> consider a fourth type of matter) which also the phenomenom that
> generates light from a fluorescent bulb. This is not meant to be a psak.

The _source_ of starlight, deep inside the star, is hydrogen fusion
proceeding very slowly in an ionized plasma.  But the light you see
comes from the _surface_ of the star, which is a thousand times cooler
and is made up of common or garden variety hot hydrohelium gases.  In
any case, the plasma in a neon tube or a fluorescent bulb is radiating
in discrete spectral lines, while a candle, a lightbulb, and a star are
all primarily broadband.  Thus, if it's the quality of the _light_
itself, and not of the source, that counts, a star should be fine.

To be machmir, we generally just use a candle.  They really aren't all
that expensive....

exceed its grasp, or |  Joshua W. Burton   (972-8)343313   <burton@...>


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:27:15 EDT
Subject: Incandescent and Fluorescent Light Bulbs for Havdalah

Arthur J Einhorn <0017801@...> writes:
>Several posts in vol. 20 #9 discussed the differences between
>incandescent and fluorescent light bulbs for havdalah. I would like to
>point out that the sefer chasmal behalach has a discussion on the
>subject of lightbulbs for havdala.  There is a reference in one of the
>footnotes to a shita that one can use the stars(probably if a candle is
>not available). The source of light from stars are plasmas (which some
>consider a fourth type of matter) which also the phenomenom that
>generates light from a fluorescent bulb.

Not quite.  The plasma in a flourescent tube does not emit visible
light.  It emits higher frequencies (UV, I think) which are not visible.
The coating on the tube absorbs this radiation and re- emits visible
light.  So you never actually see the glowing gas.

This is different from a star, which glows in the visible light spectrum
and is visible without any special coatings on anything.

This would make a difference with respect to Havdala, since you must see
the fire itself and not a reflection of it.  (Just like a frosted
lighbulb can't be used, but only a clear one.)


From: Shlomo H. Pick <F12013%<BARILAN.BITNET@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:52 O
Subject: M.A. about Names

Concerning sources about naming and names in judaism, my colleague
Ms. Sarah Munitz Hammar did her MA on this subject.  It is called
Jewish Customs and Laws Relating to Personal Names, Ramat-Gan, Israel
1989, as a requirement for master's degree in the dept. of Talmud at
bar-ilan university
I can add that the recepient of the Isreal Prize for 1993, Prof.
D. Sperber, had been asked for copies by some mohalim in Jerusalem
which they use under the table (is pass nicht to use a book authored
by a nekeiva).  The volume in effect supercedes some of the more
popular ones.


From: A.M.Goldstein <MZIESOL@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 15:06:47 IST
Subject: N'giah

Several years ago when I went to have a blood cholesterol test done on
the spot, a then new service by my "Sick Fund," a frum younger married
lady did the testing, which at first surprised me.  But then I saw she
was wearing latex gloves, so I guess she did not really hold my hand.
The physical therapee could request the female therapist to wear such
gloves, even if he has to supply them himself.


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 15:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Negiah

According to the reasoning given (that physical therapy might be a
problem of Negiah), for the first 5650 years of this world a woman would
not have been able to go to the doctor (who was always male)...

Negiah is a prohibition of touching in a 'sexually-motivated' manner. 
Over time, somehow, this seems to have been forgotten by many. In certain
countries in Western Europe, where it was common for men to greet women by
kissing them, and there was no sexual meaning to such an act, religious
men and women did kiss. I know the gradchildren of people from one such
community, and they can attest to this fact. In the secular circles of 
the USA in which the same is true of handshaking, one may shake a woman's 
hand. (Note: Since many Orthodox Jews try to refrain from touching women, 
shaking a reigious woman's hand may be a problem as it is may not be a 
normal thing to do...)

My point is that as far as the question of physical theraphy is 
concerned, negiah is a NON-ISSUE. The physical therapist is doing her 
job, and is not making any sexually motivated move. 

Remember, Negiah is usually attributed to 'Lo tikrivu L'Galot Ervah' -- 
Derech Ervah, Derech Chiba, to which Physical Therapy does not even come 

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://haven.ios.com/~likud/steinber/
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: <Tovt@...> (Tova Taragin)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 19:27:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Negiah and Doctors

I just recently heard Rav Heinemann of the Agudah of Baltimore speak on
the subject of negiah and he said (if I understood him correctly,) that
negiah is only thru ahava and chibah and in a doctor - patient
relationship (I believe that this holds true here) it is not considered
negiah and totally mutar...and women should not be afraid to go to male
doctors and men should not be afraid to go to women doctors.


From: Gedaliah Friedenberg <gedaliah@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 21:03:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Wife and Mother: Same Names?
Newsgroups: shamash.mail-jewish

In v20n18 Chuck Karmiel writes:
> What is the source of the law/custom preventing one from marrying a
>woman with the same Hebrew name as one's mother?  Is it a universally
>accepted, Ashkenazic/Sephardic, law/custom?
> Any information regarding this subject would be welcome, including any
>common "heterim" or circumstances which would allow it.

The basis for this is Ayin HaRah (something which may appear
inappropriate) and has some kind of kabbalistic implications as well,
according to my Rav.  If I (Gedaliah Friedenberg, son of Blima Fayga
Friedenberg) were to marry a girl named Blima Fayga Katz, then after she
takes my name, my wife would be Blima Fayga Friedenberg (same as my
mother).  Some people may get the mis-impression that I am involved in
prohibited relations with my mother (since my wife and mother have the
same name confusion may occur).

[Note: the prohibition against marrying a person who shares a name with
your parent only extends to men marrying women with the same name as
their mother.  A girl who marries a man with the same name as her father
does not create the same problem since after the marriage the two
individuals (chosson and father-in-law) will not have the same name.]

My Rav continued to explain that this issue was especially true when
newlyweds tended to live with the chosson's parents after marriage.  If
the chosson were call for his wife during the night (for intimate
reasons), the mother might mistakingly come and chv"s indescretions may

Just this week I heard of a girl whose fiancee's mother shares her first
name.  Soon after the engagement, the girl asked every to begin calling
her by her middle name in order to aviod any unnecessary complications
regarding this issue.



From: <roth@...> (Arnold Roth)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:24:37 +0300
Subject: Wife with name of mother

In V20N18, Chuck Karmiel asked about the custom of a man not marrying a
woman with the same name as his mother. Prof Daniel Sperber discusses this
in Minhagei Yisrael Part 2, page 11-12. The source seems to be Rabbi Yehuda
HaHassid's will, Siman 23, which says " A man should not marry a woman whose
name is as the name of his mother or that his name is as the name of his
father-in-law, and if he married her, one of the names should be changed,
perhaps there is hope." (my translation)
He then brings the Noda BiYehuda, who says this was only for his
descendants. In the footnote (no.23) he refers to Sefer Hassidim Siman 477;
Ezrat Kohen (Rav Kook) Siman 5 & 7; Yabia Omer ( Rav Ovadia) Part 2 Siman 7
and other Shu"tim I don't recognize.
Later, he also quotes Rav Rahamim Yitzhak Falaji, from Izmir, as saying that
the Izmir community was not careful in following Rabbi Yehuda Hahassid's
will until a certain Rabbi married his daughter to a man with the same name
as his "ub'meat hayamim nehlash hahatan" ( and soon the groom became weakened)
In the same digest, Gerald Sutofsky said " there is most definitely "negiah
between the therapists and this young man". I think Rav Feinstein makes it
quite clear in various places that negiah only applies to touching with some
emotional intent - not sitting next to a woman on a bus, for instance, and
presumabely not when it is for physical therapy.
Pinchas Roth       
 Office: +972-2-864323 (as of 8th May 1995)  Fax: +972-2-259050
 Email: <roth@...>
 Mail: PO Box 23637, Jerusalem, 91236 ISRAEL


End of Volume 20 Issue 20