Volume 20 Number 50
                       Produced: Tue Jul 18 23:13:07 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bedtime rituals
         [Michael Lipkin]
Chatan and Kallah: Week Separation
         [Aryeh A. Frimer]
         [Israel Wagner]
Forefathers and Mitzvoth
         [Sam Sitt]
         [Dov Lerner]
Gelatine (2)
         [Zvi Weiss, Michael J Broyde]
Kaddish before Mussaf (2)
         [Chaim Steinmetz, Rivka Goldfinger]
Kaddish without Ashray
         [Joe Goldstein]
Oat Matzah
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
Separate seating at weddings
         [Akiva Miller]
Separate Seating...
         [Zvi Weiss]
Wedding Minhagim
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]


From: <msl@...> (Michael Lipkin)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 14:20:50 +0500
Subject: Bedtime rituals

>From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
>While on the subject, I'm curious what "Jewish bedtime rituals" other 
>parents out there are accustomed to.

Oy.  When my eldest was one year old I decided that I wanted to do
something a little more "Jewish" than the typical nursery rhyme type
stuff.  So I began a routine where (after reading 2 stories) I would
list each of the Jewish holidays, with a brief description, before Shema
and Hamalach Hagoel.  She loved it.  And when she entered pre-nursery
her teacher was very impressed that this little 3 year old knew all of
the Jewish holidays by heart.

Now it's 9 years later and this now 10 year old still requires I "do
holidays" every night.  And of course her 8 year old sister and 5 year
old brother get equal time.  Actually, the 5 year old gets a double,
because even though he listens to "holidays" in the girls' room I have
to do it over again when he's in his bed!

Though it may sound like I'm lampooning this ritual, the truth is that
the day I'm not asked to do it anymore will be a sad one for me.



From: <frimer@...> (Aryeh A. Frimer)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 95 09:40:15 EDT
Subject: Chatan and Kallah: Week Separation

	The custom that the Chatan and Kallah don't see each other for a
week before the wedding seems quite widespread among ashkenazim, but not
sefaradim.  In addition, I searched close to a dozen halakha sefarim on
the laws of marriage Chuppa etc and found no mention whatsoever of this
custom. So it must be quite recent. Perhaps the minhag was not known to
reb Moshe (doubtful), perhaps he felt it made no difference if the
Chatan and kallah saw each other the day of the chuppah or a few hours
just before. In any case, the absence of any mention of this custom from
Halakha sefarim on the subject hints to its importance or lack of
halakhic basis.


From: <wagner@...> (Israel Wagner)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 05:33:47 +0300
Subject: Fajitas

IMHO, Fajitas (dough filled with meat or vegetables) is a case of "PAT
HABAA BE-KISNIN" (i.e. bread in the shape of a pocket) which, according
to kitzur-shulchan-aruch chapter 48 is a "mezonot" (unless you eat much
of them - then it becomes a "hamotzi").

Israel Wagner


From: <Samsitt@...> (Sam Sitt)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:50:18 -0400
Subject: Forefathers and Mitzvoth

The last mishna in Rosh Hashana states that Avraham Avinu "fulfilled the
entire Torah". In a gemara in Yoma (daf 16 or near) it says he
"fulfilled the entire Torah even Erub Tabshilin"

Upon asking my local orthodox rabbis, I received two different paths of
        1) Yes, our forefathers, with their prophetic abilities, knew
all the laws ahead of time and actually kept all the holidays and even
Rabbinic laws.  The fact that many Rishonim constantly try to excuse our
forefathers from any violation of the Mitzvoth is the main proof to this
        2) Of course they didn't practice the Mitzvoth yet. This is
obviously a midrashic statement.

Until I came across this Mishna, I had always assumed our forefathers
didn't have the Mitzvoth yet, though, the ethical ideals of Tzedakah and
Mishpath were grounded within them.

Any elucidation on this topic would be appreciated.



From: <bdlerner@...> (Dov Lerner)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:51:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gelatin

Dear Chevreh,

Josh raised an interesting question regarding gelatin and the
differences between American and Israeli interpretations. My observation
is that if gelatin is made from kosher bones, it is a meat source which
becomes through processing a pareve "ingredient."  Why is it not a meat

If it is truly pareve because of the processing, then why would not the
same processing turn any bones, without regard to their origin, into a
pareve ingredient, ala the Israeli interpretation?

I recall many, many years ago a column in the Jewish Press in which the
statement occurred that indeed gelatin because of the processing became
"davar chadash" and was unfit to eat even for a dog.  The author stated
that we use "kosher" gelatin because it is available and is a Jewish
enterprise.  Has an extension of that thinking now become normative
American orthodox custom?  Does any part of American orthodoxy accept
the Israeli interpretation?

Dov Lerner  


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 16:50:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gelatine

I am sure that others will respond as well but...

There is a major dispute among the Poskim as to whether Gelatin made
from the *bones* of a non-Kosher animal can bve considered Kosher or
not.  If anyone has access to No'am in one of the early volumes, there
are responsa on this matter from R. Moshe Z"TL, as well as R. Aharon
Kotler ZT"L (I think...).  In these responsa, there is a tremendous
chumra that is formulated that -- in effect -- states that even though
*bone* is not considered (halachically) "meat" -- and, is in fact
inedible, there is a special "Ribui" (inclusion) that products of this
bone are STILL considered *non-Kosher*.

This p'sak was primarily accepted in the US.  Thus, in Israel, one could
buy Kosher Gelatin products in B'nei B'rak which were not accpetable in
the States.  I believe that this matter was referred to as the matter of
the "Belgian gelatin".

Kolatin Gelatin (out of Lakewood) was able to work out a suitable
process for making "real" gelatin (as opposed to Agar/Agar).  However, I
am pretty sure that they do not use fish derivatives but Animal
products.  Someone should probably ocntact them to determine this
definitively.  Note that the gelatin made from the bones of *kosher
Animals* is considered *parve* -- not "fleishig" as the bones do NOt
have a halachic status of "meat".


P.S. I believe that other groups (in addition ot the OU) have formally
"accepted" Kolatin, as well.

From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 19:01:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gelatine

Re the discussion concerning gelatine, I beleive that there will be a 
forthcoming article in the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society 
focusing on the issue of the kashrus of geletine by Rabbi Howard 
Jachter.  For those who want advancve copies, Rabbi Jachter can be 
reached at 718-451-0874.
Michael Broyde

P.S.	The question of what should be the practice of an american in 
Israel, or the reverse, has nearly nothing to do with what is the proper 
halacha, but instead relates to the question of the stregth of the 
talmudic ruling concerning keeping the customs of ones own locale as 
well as the place one is visiting.  More on that later.


From: <Chaimstein@...> (Chaim Steinmetz)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:27:18 -0400
Subject: Kaddish before Mussaf

regarding the orphan kaddish before musaph and after a kiddush.

it is clear they should repeat ashrei with a minyan (see Aruch
Hashulchan 286:1). this is a problem in most shuls when the Rabbi speaks
before kaddish.  the custom to do this probably assumes that the sermon
is part of teffilah.


From: <RGOLDFINGER@...> (Rivka Goldfinger)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:30:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kaddish before Mussaf

Yitz Etshalom posted a question about saying kaddish "alone" before
Mussaf.  In my shul, the Rav gives his drasha between the Torah reading
and Mussaf.  The chazzan for mussaf then begins by repeating "Hashivainu
Hashem Eilecha. . ." and then continuing with the kaddish preceeding 
Mussaf.  I'm not sure if this has any halachic basis, but thought it 
sounded like a similar situation.

Rivka Goldfinger


From: Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 95 16:19:50 
Subject: Kaddish without Ashray

It would seem that Ashray would have to be said prior to saying the
kaddish before Mussaf and after your Kiddush.
 This is the same reason a Kaddish is not said after Kriyas Hatorah
Shabbos Afternoon. There is a Kaddish said After ASHREY UVVOH LEZIYON,
and then one which precedes SHEMONAH ESRAY for Mincha. If a Kaddish
would be said after KRIYAS HATORAH as is normally done, The AVUDRAHAM
says, then what would you be saying the Kaddish on preceding Shomenah
Esray.  (The time factor would not make any difference)

Yosey Goldstein                                                                


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 95 11:56:17 EDT
Subject: Oat Matzah

> >From: Bernard F. Kozlovsky M.D. <BFK@...>
> Michael Broyde states:
> >I would strongly advise such a person to eat white matzoh soaked in 
> >water, if needed. In my opinion that is preferable to using oats as one 
> >of the five grains.
> I believe the original question involved a person who could become
> seriously ill eating wheat products. Suggesting soaking wheat matzah in
> water would be of no use. My understanding was that these individuals
> could fulfill the mitzvah with oat matzah, but I am not familiar with
> the sources. I would appreciate any information regarding this topic

While I am sure Dr. Kozlovsky silently noted this, for cases of allergy
to wheat gluten, soaking the matza might do the trick.  For other wheat
allergies, it probably won't.

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 22:30:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Separate seating at weddings

I have not been able to find it, but I distinctly remember once seeing
in the Mishna Brura that the phrase "Shehasimcha Bim'ono" (which is a
special addition to the grace after the wedding meal) may be said only
if the men and women are seated separately. Obviously, many disagree
with this, but it sure seems worth noting. (If anyone can find where he
says that, please let us all know.)


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 16:41:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Separate Seating...

While I respect Mordechai's sensitivity to be Machmir in at a time when
so much "Pritzut" (Lack of basic modesty) abounds, I have serious
reservations when such a Chumra tramples on the feelings of others.

In his article in Tradition, R. Chaim Soloveitzhik made the point that
much of this matter of Chumrot entirely ignores the *halachic* concept
of "Shelo L'hotzee La'az Al Harishonim" -- that we should not attempt to
do something which will indicate that our forbears were acting
improperly.  This can certainly arise if the parents wish to have mixed
seating (remembering all of the celebrations that *they* attended --
incl. those where Gedolim were present) and the children insist in what
becomes a rather nasty fashion that *they* are going to it the
"halchically correct" way with separate seating. (In this case, there is
probably also a very serious issue of Kibbud Av in the child either
attempting to impose his/her *chumra* upon parents OR in telling the
parents that they (the parents) were behaving halachically incorrectly
in having mixed seating.

Thus, if someone wishes to have separate seating and there is no
dissension within that person's family, then -- given our current "moral
climate" -- it is a legitimate thing to do (i.e., I strongly doubt that
there will be a question of "Yohara" here as this has already become a
fairly well-known custom among various Orthodox circles).

However, if someone is having dissension in their family over this, esp.
with parents, it is probalby NOT a great thing to insist upon.



From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 10:08:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Wedding Minhagim

Gayle Statman MJ20#48 stated:
>Chaim Wasserman asked:
>>why couldn't all pictures with the chosson/kallah together be taken 
>>(or at least most of them) several hours before the wedding 
>>smorgasbord and only the joint extended family pictures after the 
>>chuppah since not everyone in the family arrives so early.  When 
>>asked about this in August of 1959 shortly before my wedding, Rav 
>>Moshe zatzal told me "Fahr vos nisht?" "Why not?" 

>Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought the chosson and kallah were
>not permitted to see each other before the chuppah.  Did I misunderstand?

Many of the Ashkenazim follow the minhag of Chatan and Kalah not seeing each
other for one week before the wedding. To the best of my knowledge the
Sefaradim did not follow this minhag. The suggestion made by R. Wasserman
(and I heard that Rosh Yeshivat Ner Israel in Baltimore made the same
suggestion) is that many people follow also the minhag of fasting on the
wedding day up to the chuppah. People who are fasting feel unphotogenic and
might look pale!

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


End of Volume 20 Issue 50