Volume 20 Number 55
                       Produced: Thu Jul 20  9:57:00 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

"Ma Tovu" Sources
         [Andy Shooman]
Bombay Shabbat Travel
         [Meylekh Viswanath]
Chinuch and Shabbos`
         [Micha Berger]
Driving a Car on Shabbat
         [David Graber]
Eruv Maintenance
         [Richard Rosen]
         [Jonah Sievers]
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
I'm looking for an old English edition of the Talmud
         [Philip Trauring]
Kissing Mezuzot
         [Aryeh A. Frimer]
Kosher housework questions.
         [Constance Stillinger]
Miracle Thaw!!
         [Cheryl Hall]
New Sefer - Shoroshei Minhag Ashkenaz
         [Aryeh Cohn]
Origins of Summer Bein Hazmanim
         [Carl Sherer]
Pronunciation of Ittecha
         [M. Linetsky]
Separate Seating at Weddings
         [Hillel Chayim Israel]


From: Andy Shooman <shooman@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 10:56:06 -0400
Subject: "Ma Tovu" Sources

Mechael Kanovsky asks:
>I was asked by a freind to post this question. Who compiled the verses
>said in the "mah tovu" that we say in the begining of shacharit? the only
>source that I had the "otzar hatfilot" was unsure. thanks.
>mechael kanovsky

     I don't know who decided to include these psukim at the beginning
of Shacharit, but I do know the sources.  These are the sources for
"Ma Tovu":

     The first sentence of "Ma Tovu," "Ma tovu o'halecha Ya'akov,
mishkenotecha Yisrael" comes directly from last week's Torah Parasha
Balak, Bamidbar Chapter 24, the words of the prophet Bilaam.  Balak,
the King of Moav, sent the prophet Bilaam to curse B'nai Yisrael, but
he instead praised B'nai Yisrael with the words, "How goodly are your
tents oh Jacob, your dwelling places oh Israel."  (Read Parashat Balak
for more details).

     According to Siddur Rinat Yisrael, the following 4 sentences in
"Ma Tovu" come respectively from Tehilim Chapters 5, 26, 26, and 69.

     Siddur Rinat Yisrael has references in the margins indicating the
sources (Tanach and Talmud) of the Tefilot.

					--Andy Shooman
Dr. Andrew M. Shooman				Mathematical Analyst
Internet: <shooman@...>			EMC Corporation
Phone:    (508) 435-1000 x4561			171 South Street
Fax:      (508) 497-8012			Hopkinton, MA 01748-9103


From: Meylekh Viswanath <PVISWANA@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:22:05 EST5EDT
Subject: Bombay Shabbat Travel

Seth Ness says that a heter was given in the late 30s by the Sephardic 
Chief Rabbi for riding on tramcars in Bombay to go to shul, under the 
following conditions:

> 1.the tram was driven by a non-jew
> 2. no stops were made specifically to pick up jews
> 3. the tram went through predominantly non-jewish neighborhoods
> 4. jewish passengers did not have to pay a fare or carry a ticket(I 
> there was no eruv)

First of all, the ticket that I have seen (reproduction) is also a tram 
ticket, not a bus ticket.
Second, there _was_ indeed a ticket, so condition 4 does not seem to 
have been satisfied.  This means that whatever the reason for the 
bombay jews to use the tram on shabes, it was not R. Uziel's heter. 
Thirdly, Bombay is an island.  This may have some relevance for the 
requirement of an eruv.

Meylekh Viswanath


From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 07:23:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Chinuch and Shabbos`

I've seen many people use a child who is not bar da'as (aware of the
issues) to do things otherwise prohibited on Shabbos. A common example
is to hold a toddler near the light switch and wait for her to push it.

Since the child is not a bar da'as, there is no problem of chinuch
(education). You have no obligation to educate a child in something she
is not yet equipped to understand.

However, isn't there a problem in YOUR Shabbos observance?

The Torah reads (as we say in Shabbos morning kiddush) "you, and your
sons, and your daughters, your servant, your maid, and your
animals". Beis Shammai thought that this would even include your
utensils. Fortunately Beis Killel thought otherwise, and most opinions
permit the use of Shabbos clocks. (R.  Moshe zt"l has reservations.)

But clearly your Shabbos observance requires that you make sure your
children rest. It seems to be beyond the normal mitzvah of
chinuch. Particularly since your animals must rest too.

Anybody know the rationale behind common practice?


From: <DavidGRAB@...> (David Graber)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 20:16:28 -0400
Subject: Driving a Car on Shabbat

In vol 20 # 38 Eli Turkel says "He also mentions the problem of Marit
Ayin when driving a car on shabbat. There is a psak attributed to Chazon
Ish that if one needs to drive to a hospital on shabbat than the man
should wear a tallit to avoid the problem of marit ayin."  I am a
physician who unfortuneately must frequently ride to the hospital on
shabbat. I frequently try to avoid religous neighborhoods where I could
be recognized to avoid marit ayin.. I do not understand how wearing a
talit would avoid the problem of marit ayin. I would appreciate an

David Graber


From: <rrosen@...> (Richard Rosen)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 04:46:15 -0700
Subject: Eruv Maintenance 

The Mount Vernon, New York (Westchester County) eruv has been maintained
by the same commercial firm for many years and we recieved good service
at a rate we could afford.  In the last few months, however, the company
has raised its prices very significantly, charging us by time rather
than a fixed fee, and adding in a per-foot charge for the cord.  Because
of these increased costs we are seeking other firms which perform eruv
maintenance in the NY metropolitan area.  Any suggestions would be

Richard A. Rosen


From: Jonah Sievers <JONAH@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 13:47:47 MET-DST
Subject: Freemasonry

I am interested in Freemasonry and would like to know the position of
trad. judaism on Freemasonry. Are there Responsa or halakhic studies
published ?

Jonah Sievers           <JONAH@...> 


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 9:54:48 EDT
Subject: Gelatine

> >From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
> I am sure that others will respond as well but...
> Kolatin Gelatin (out of Lakewood) was able to work out a suitable
> process for making "real" gelatin (as opposed to Agar/Agar).  However, I
> am pretty sure that they do not use fish derivatives but Animal
> products.  Someone should probably ocntact them to determine this
> definitively.  Note that the gelatin made from the bones of *kosher
> Animals* is considered *parve* -- not "fleishig" as the bones do NOt
> have a halachic status of "meat".

This gelatin is real gelatin, but made out of fish rather than meat.  If
the fish parts used come from certified kosher type fish, I presume this
avoids all of the issues that can come up with using meat bones.  I am
not aware of any group that does not accept this gelatin, and am curious
if indeed someone has found ground to reject this product.

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: <philip@...> (Philip Trauring)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 21:45:48 -0500
Subject: I'm looking for an old English edition of the Talmud

I recently found an incomplete Talmud in English that was apparently
published around the turn of the century. I found ten volumes from two
different printings(1903 and 1918) although the introduction of one of them
mentions thirteen volumes(21 tracts) comleted so far. So at a minimum there
were thirteen volumes and probably more. They were published by the New
Talmud Society in Boston and the primary translator was a Michael

If anyone has a complete set(or single volumes past v10) and is interested
in selling the books to me, I am interested. The later the set the better
as it appears from the introduction that several vollumes were completely
revised in later printings. Anyways, if you have these books or can point
me in the right direction, I would appreciate it if you could contact me.

        Philip Trauring                <philip@...>
        Brandeis University MB1001
        P.O. Box 9110                  "knowledge is my addiction,
        Waltham, MA  02254-9110         information is my drug."


From: <frimer@...> (Aryeh A. Frimer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 12:52:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Kissing Mezuzot

	There is no Halakhic obligation to kiss mezuzot. Indeed, Rav
Henkin Zatsal in Eidot le-Yisrael objects to kissing the Mezuzah and
sefer Torah on the Halakhic grounds that it is unhealthy and an easy way
to spread germs. He suggests "blowing a Kiss", a custom he says is
widespread among Sfaradim.


From: Constance Stillinger <cas@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kosher housework questions.

What cleaning products need hashgocha?  This question occurred to me as
I was using a phosphoric-acid based cleaner on my bathtub, and I
realized I had no idea how phosphoric acid is produced.  The soap I use
to wash dishes is O-U.  But I'm not in the habit of checking my toilet
bowl cleaners for a hechsher.

What about hand soap?  Shampoo?  Baby wipes?  Laundry detergent?
Bathroom cleaners?  Window cleaners?  etc etc?

Isn't it true that we're not allowed to derive any benefit from any pork
product?  How do I know that *anything* I bring into the house---any
household item, not just cleaning agents--- doesn't have pork-based

Where is the limit generally set?

Dr. Constance A. (Chana) Stillinger        <cas@...>
EPGY, Stanford Univ.   Morris's Mommy   "Hoppa Reyaha Gamogam" (Lev. 19:18)


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 00:23:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Miracle Thaw!!

First and foremost... I was sure I had been taken in by crazed
advertizing to do the impossible..... but this thing really works!!  So
it wasn't the sucker bet on which I was sure I was placing my $16 to
lose, now comes the hard part "what" is it.  Now that I am really going
to use this thing rather than toss it after presumed failure, how does
this fit in a kosher kitchen???!!!

Do I toivel it? I haven't got a clue whether its plastic, metal or
moonrock.  And does it stay parve since there never is any
heat. Actually, the thing becomes super-cold as the item really
thaws. There's no heat, electricity, batteries... any thing.  This is
the strangeness thing!!!

Hi-Tech & Judaism... worlds in collision again :-) !!

Cheryl <CHERYLHALL@...> Long Beach CA USA


From: <leon@...> (Aryeh Cohn)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 17:16 edt
Subject: New Sefer - Shoroshei Minhag Ashkenaz

This post is intended for U.S. readers.

A new Hebrew Sefer called "Shoroshei Minhag Ashkenaz" (loosely
translated Sources of Ashkenazic Customs) by Rabbi Binyomin Homberger is
now available in the US. The author is Rav of the synagogue in the new
Maaynei Hayeshua hospital in Bnei Brak Israel.

This sefer (the first volume of a series) encompasses many years of
research at libraries throughout the world, documenting the sources and
authenticity of Minhag Ashkenaz all the way back to the Rishonim.

Available at many bookstores in New York.

If anyone is interested in ordering directly from the US distributor
(wholesale/retail) please contact <leon@...>

Kol Tuv,
Aryeh Cohn


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 22:44:08 IDT
Subject: Origins of Summer Bein Hazmanim

Yesterday at Mincha I half-jokingly suggested to the owner of the
factory where we daven that he bring his younger brothers in during bein
hazmanim to strengthen the minyan which like many has been occasionally
short over the summer.  His response was something to the effect of
"Bein hazmanim - that's a goyishe concept.  The only times we close our
Yeshivas are for a few days before Pesach to bake matza and a few days
before Sukkos to build a Sukka."  I know of at least one other Yeshiva
here that has no bein hazmanim besides theirs.

The $64,000 question - what is the origin of the summer bein hazmanim?

-- Carl
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: 81920562%<TAONODE@...> (M. Linetsky)
Date: Tue 11 Jul 1995 10:19 ET
Subject: Pronunciation of Ittecha

in issue 41 there was an inquiry about the pronunciation of the word
Ittecha in Lev 18:17 (I believe). The most authoritative work that is
easiest to access is called Minhath Shai found in the Greenberg edition
of the Miqraoth Gedholoth and see what he says. See also the Allepo
codex as published by Mordechai Breurby Mosadh Harav Kook. It is
available, as far as I know, only with the Russian translation. From a
phonetic point of view, if the word Ittecha is penultimate it becomes
Ittach. Usually penultimation occurs with an Athnah or a Silluq, though
there are exceptions.


From: Hillel Chayim Israel <ag723@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 20:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Separate Seating at Weddings

Someone mentioned that there is a de'ah [opinion] that when a se'udat
nisu'in [wedding feast] is held with mixed seating, the phrase
'shehasimchah bim'ono' is not said.  The sources are the Bach (Bayit
Chadash) and Bash (Beit Shemu'eil) on Even Ha'ezer Siman 62.

Kol Tuv,



End of Volume 20 Issue 55