Volume 20 Number 86
                       Produced: Tue Aug  8  0:03:49 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bringing Children to Shul
         [Tova Taragin]
Children in shul
         [Philip Ledereic]
Children in synagogue
         [Ezra L Tepper]
Eliyahu and Pinchas
         [Chaim Schild]
Ma'ser (Tithe)
         [Yakov Zalman Friedman]
Proposed US Federal Meat and Poultry Regulations
         [Josh Backon]
Shlepping kids to shul
         [Micha Berger]
Small Children in the Synagogue
         [Yehudah Prero]
Terumoth / Ma`Aseroth
         [Eli Turkel]
Yechiel Naiman a"h
         [Mike Gerver]


From: <Tovt@...> (Tova Taragin)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:08:00 -0400
Subject: Bringing Children to Shul

I think the problem, these days, with the advent of eruvim in most
Orthodox communities, is that most mothers view Shabbos as a day of rest
and expect their husbands to bring young children to shul early in the
day so they could get their "well-earned rest."  To quote the former
Rebbetzin of our shul, Mrs. Muriel Bak, when discussing this issue at a
sisterhood meeting -- she admonished us by saying, "Ladies, your
husbands are not good babysitters".
 There is no reason why there are strollers lined up outside of shuls
before kriyas HaTorah. Realistically, bringing a child who is not old
enough to understand is not going to teach him/her the beauty of
tefillah -- it will only make all the other mispallilim very upset and
angry.  Thank G-d our shul has the "rule" (much to many people's dismay)
that on the Yamim Noraim no children under the age of 6 are allowed.
What is the answer?  Babysitting groups for young children; junior
services for older children (where they learn the tefillos, go over
Parsha questions, tell stories, etc -- making it age and grade
appropriate) and Youth minyanim for teens, where they learn how to daven
for the amud, lein, be gabbai, give sermons, etc -- so they can perfect
the skills they learned for their bar mitzvahs and be able to "shine"
doing it...there is an alternative to bringing young children into main
 Tova Taragin


From: Philip Ledereic <ledereic@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 95 23:27:21 EDT
Subject: Children in shul

I must agree with all the posters that say if children run around and
make noise in shul it is pointless.

Nevertheless, I have been bringing my 18 month old daughter to shul
since she was born, AND NOTHING can beat the nachas I get when: she
answers amein to the davening, when she hears the people and me answer
amein she, at the age of 18 months, loves to see the Torahs, and knows
to kiss the torahs (last shabbos I showed her the Torahs in the aron,
and she blew them kisses).

The results I got because I had her sit with me, and not run around.  I
took full responsibility for her, and if she made noise, I brought her
out.  I never let her run around.  In fact, I was annoying to me when
some other of the children wanted to play with her in shul, because I
wanted her to know what shul was about.

In summary: I think that if done correctly, shul can be a very positive
experience for todlers, but that it takes a real commitment on the
parents to make sure that it is one.  (In addition to the positive role
models that we should be living up to at home as well).



From: Ezra L Tepper <RRTEPPER@...>
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 15:14:35 +0300
Subject: Children in synagogue

Not sure if this has been previously posted, but my old shul the
Riverdale Jewish Center in the Bronx has this Chanukah instituted a 7
a.m. minyan in which men with young children can pray. Since prayers are
finished there before 9 a.m., the men can then scoot home to take care
of the kiddies allowing the wife gets out to the 8:30 minyan without
either of them being burdened with supervising the youngsters during
prayers. The husband, if he wants, can later bring the children to shul
and watch them outside the shul. Other synagogues have someone taking
care of the really young children.

When I was out in Riverdale this winter, though, I noticed that
attendance at the 7 a.m. minyan had not yet really caught on. But the
minyan has the rabbis' support.

Ezra L. Tepper <rrtepper@...>


From: <SCHILDH@...> (Chaim Schild)
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 11:49:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Eliyahu and Pinchas

Eli Turkel states " First why would such a wicked person live for over
400 years from the days of Isaac to the end of the days of Moshe

HaShem's will......Og lived from as early as the Flood (hanging onto the
Ark according some Midrashim) through Avraham's time all the way to be
killed by Moshe....

Nobody said in Eliyahu/Pinchas's case that it was the same body....just
the same soul...



From: Yakov Zalman Friedman <bfriedman@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ma'ser (Tithe)

Regarding the reason we eat the ma'ser (tithe) that we take from our
fruits and vegetables in Israel, I am under the impression that it is
only when we are removing it in a case of doubt.  If one was sure that
the ma'aser had not yet been removed, then it would have to be given to
the levi'im.  Ezra's decree was that all maaser was only to be given to
the cohanim. ( Ksuvos 26A,131B). There is an opinion of Rav Meir that
ma'aser is forbidden to anyone not a levi or cohen (Yevomos 74A, 85b)
but we do not hold by this opinion.  Therefore, if there is a doubt as
to whether the food has had its ma'aser removed we invoke the rule of
the levi who wants to take something from the purchaser having to prove
that A) the ma'aser has not yet been taken and b) that he is a levi. If
the ma'aser has definitely not been removed then the ma'aser can not be
eaten until it has been received by a levi.

Yakov Zalman Friedman


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Mon,  7 Aug 95 21:30 +0200
Subject: Re: Proposed US Federal Meat and Poultry Regulations

Howard Reich asks for citations in the scientific literature that the
kashering process effectively eliminates pathogens from meat and
poultry.  Before I give the actual references, concerned readers ought
to bring to the attention of the OU that a very simple experiment using
a relatively inexpensive ($2500) device will show the USDA that their
fears are unfounded. Have then contact SENSIDYNE 800-451-9444 and ask
for their *odor monitor* which in seconds detects odor causing bacteria.

Back to references:

The toxicity of blood obtained by arteriotomy (a.k.a. shechita) was
compared to blood obtained by killing animals by other means. Needless
to say, the arteriotomy method was vastly less toxic (American Journal
of Physiology 1931;XCVI:662). Muscle suspensions or extracts obtained
after shechita were least toxic as compared to similar muscle
suspensions obtained after other methods of slaughter (Am J Physiology
1932;XCVII:662). Nerves lose their viability much faster after
arteriotomy than by other methods of slaughter (Am J Physiology
1932;102:138). Now for something more relevant vis a vis bacterial
pathogens: redox phenomena were much faster inhibited in muscle obtained
by arteriotomy (Archives Internationale de Pharmacodynam et de Therapie

[If we're already dealing with this, you'll be interested to note that
mixtures of meat and milk when injected into mice, rats and other
animals exhibited a synergistic or potentiated toxicity as compared to
milk or meat extracts alone (Arch Intl Pharmacodynam et de Therapie
1934;XLIX:175).  And the remarkable finding of BITUL B'SHISHIM where the
researcher found that limits of effective concentrations of meat and
milk were in the ratio of one to sixty (Journal of Biological Chemistry

P.S. If you really want to PLOTZ, read the article that shows that shows
the specific toxicity of wool and linen on a particular assay
(Protoplasma 1939;33:341).

Josh Backon


From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:34:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shlepping kids to shul

I too bring my kids to shul. My oldest, 7, can actually participate for
some of it. For the rest of them I have no excuse.

It's very hard to be away from them working all week and then lose a
good portion of the weekend in shul. It is also hard not to give my wife
a break when I can. Of course the kid who can't sit nicely in shul
doesn't go (even though he's the one my wife needs a break from).

I could come up with lofty excuses for taking my kids to shul, but
that's the real reason.


From: <DaPr@...> (Yehudah Prero)
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 21:11:18 -0400
Subject: Small Children in the Synagogue

>From: <TAXRELIEF@...> (Winston Weilheimer)
>if we do not allow children to come when the are small and learn
>tefilah when they are impressionable, how can we cry when the leave
>when they are older and tell us that the religion means nothing to

I believe a great source regarding children in shul which addressed Mr.
Weilheimer's points somewhat is in Shulchan Aruch Orech Chaim 98:1,
specifically the Mishna Brura there, #3. He writes that the Shela used to
(translated loosely)  "cry  of  injustice on those who brought their small
children to shul - small meaning that they were not of the age of chinuch
(education) yet - because the kids would play and dance, profane the sanctity
of the shul, and disturb the people praying, and furthermore, when these kids
get older, they wont change their ways which they learned in their youth - to
act crazy  and to degrade the holiness of the shul. However, once the kids
are of age of chinuch - just the opposite! Bring them to shul, teach them
what to do, how to sit with the proper respect, to be quick to answer

I think this Shela speaks for itself.

Yehudah Prero


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:31:14 -0400
Subject: Terumoth / Ma`Aseroth

    As Lon assumed there is no need to take out a "good" piece for
Terumoth / Ma`Aseroth, Challah etc. since it is being thrown out in any
case. In fact when we were learning about shemitta the rabbi mentioned
that no one keeps a special can for Terumoth / Ma`Aseroth before
throwing them out. He didn't really know the reason for the difference
between shemitta and terumah.
    Maaser rishon can be eaten by anyone it has no special holiness.  As
such it is only a question of 'stealing" from the Levi if one does not
give it to the Levi. Nevertheless it must be separated otherwise the
fruit is "tevel". Since ,as you point out, no one today can prove he is
a levi there is no theft. The decree of Ezra only allowed the Cohen to
receive the Maaser Rishon in addition to the Levi.
    There is a famous story of several rabbis who were travelling to
Rome on a ship. Rabban Gamliel gave the terumah that he had put aside to
Rabbi Eliezer ben Azaryiah (a cohen) and the maaser rishon to Rabbi
Yehoshua (a levi). Thus we see that in practice the maaser rishon was
given to a Levi rather than a Cohen during Tanaatic times (the
commentaries on this Gemara discuss this in more detail).
     Portions that have intrinsic holiness are terumah, terumat maaser
(10% of the maaser rishon that the levi gives to a cohen), maaser sheni
that should be brought to Jerusalem, First fruits and Challah (and among
animals the firstborn of sheep). Other gifts like maaser rishon, maaser
ani (for the poor) the parts of the animal given to a Cohen (shok etc.)
the part of the fleece of sheep etc. are not holy but are the money of
the Cohen, Levi, poor man.

Eli Turkel


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 2:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Yechiel Naiman a"h

Mrs. Tzivia Naiman received visitors in her home in Brookline on the
afternoon of Tisha B'Av, and I heard many wonderful stories there. One
story, in particular, I found very striking, and would like to repeat it
here, because I think it would be of general interest and value to
mail-jewish readers. It deals with a topic that has been discussed here
a while back, under the subject headings "Candy and Davening", "Candy
for Davening" and "Candy and Reward", in v11n79, v11n82, and v11n87.
I'm not sure I got all the details of the story right, so I am
improvising a bit, but will get the point across.

Once when Tzivia was in shul on a Shabbat morning, someone noticed that
all of the kids in shul were going up to Yechiel, and remarked to her
"Oh, I see your husband is the candy man." "No," she said, in fact she
and Yechiel disapproved of kids eating candy in shul, and did not allow
their own kids to do it. So why were all the kids making a bee-line for
Yechiel? It turned out that he would ask each kid a question, usually in
the form of "Can you find three places in the parsha where ... ?"  And
the kids loved it!

Someone who was present when Tzivia was telling this story, I forget
who, remarked "Candy for the neshoma!"

I was very impressed with this story, not only for what it tells us
about the kind of man Dr. Naiman was, but for personal reasons as
well. When I got home, I had an opportunity to try this technique out on
my son, who is 13, loves candy, and is pretty negative and cynical about
limudei kodesh. I mentioned that I would to go to mincha in a couple of
hours, and that I didn't want to miss it because there is a bracha in
mincha of Tisha B'Av that is only said once a year. I asked him (and my
older daughters who were also there) if he could think of the only other
two brachot that are only said once a year. (This was a riddle that I
had heard some years ago from Phil Meyers, and hadn't figured out until
he told me.) He was immediately intrigued by this question, thought
about it, and with a couple of minor hints figured out the answer, and
before his sisters did, and seemed very proud of it.

I can think of no better way to honor the memory of Dr. Naiman than for
everyone to try this out, on their own kids and on other people's kids
in shul.

By the way, I was thinking so much about this story, and the
possibilities it offers, that when I did daven mincha I forgot to say
"Nachem". Aauugh!

I wouldn't spoil readers' fun by telling the answer to the question I
asked my son, but will point out that it is not strictly correct. One of
the other brachot is not said every single year, but is said most years,
and is never said more than once a year. On the years when it is not
said, another bracha is substituted for it, that is only said on those

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


End of Volume 20 Issue 86