Volume 20 Number 90
                       Produced: Tue Aug  8 21:16:55 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

70 Languages (2)
         [Yeshaya Halevi, Avi Feldblum]
Berachos said once a year
         [Joe Halberstadt]
Children in Shul
         [Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank]
Direction to Face While Praying
         [Steve Ganot]
Future Times
         [Bill Page]
         [Michael J Broyde]
Internet Address at Agudas Yisroel of America
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Jewish Brainteasers
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Kosher cigarettes
         [Josh Backon]
Kosher cigs
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Kosher Cleaning Products
         [Meyer Rafael]
Meat and Fish, Less than 1 in 60
         [Michael J Broyde]
Numbers and numbers
         [Ari Belenkiy]
Pigeon Remedy
         [Warren Burstein]
Seventy Languages
         [Jonathan Katz]
U'shmartem Es Nafshoseichem
         [Michael Shimshoni]


From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:36:33 -0400
Subject: 70 Languages

<kimel@...> (Moishe Kimelman) said :
<The gemara in makkot (daf yomi) rules that there must be at least one
<member of the Sanhedrin who knows "all seventy languages".  If mashiach
<<were to come tomorrow, and the Sanhedrin were to be reinstituted, how
<many languages would be needed to be known?> 

  No problem.  There is a computer program called "Targumatik" which
translates Hebrew to English and vice versa.  Presumably one could be
written for 70 or 170 languages.

<Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:39:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 70 Languages

Yehaya Halevi writes:
>          No problem.  There is a computer program called "Targumatik"
> which translates Hebrew to English and vice versa.  Presumably one could
> be written for 70 or 170 languages.

But then we would still be left with the problem of Sanhedrin not being
able to use a translator, having to hear directly from the
litigants/witnesses. Why should I care if the translator is human or



From: Joe Halberstadt <fx_joe@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 16:30:27 GMT
Subject: Berachos said once a year

Mike Gerver said that there are three Berachos which we say only once a
year.  Well, As far as I know there are 5, with some additional
'deabtable' ones.

Happy Guessing
Yossi Halberstadt

[OK, since a few people asked, what I will do is collect all answers
sent in for the next week, and I will then post the answers and who sent
them in next Wednesday (August 16). Mod.]


From: Alan Cooper and Tamar Frank <Alan.Cooper@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 09:47:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Children in Shul

Yehuda Prero writes:
>I believe a great source regarding children in shul which addressed Mr.
>Weilheimer's points somewhat is in Shulchan Aruch Orech Chaim 98:1,
>specifically the Mishna Brura there, #3. He writes that the Shela used to
>(translated loosely)  "cry  of  injustice on those who brought their small
>children to shul 

>I think this Shela speaks for itself.

Yes, it is a great source, which is why it was the one that I cited in
my original two postings on this topic ;-) At least Mr. Prero took
seriously my request for *sources, as opposed to anecdotes and personal
opinions.  One interesting aspect of the SHeLa"H's diatribe is that it
is *not by the SHeLa"H, although it is cited in his name by the Magen
Avraham and the Mishna Berura.  In fact, as the SHeLa"H clearly states,
he is quoting from the ethical treatise Derekh Chayyim by Menachem de
Lonzano, a work that was pretty popular in the 16th and 17th centuries.
I'm glad that I never had to daven in Lonzano's shul!

Alan Cooper


From: Steve Ganot <STEVEGAN@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:57:30 GMT+0200
Subject: Direction to Face While Praying

Mike Gerver commented that when davening at the kotel, we face east,
towards the kotel, instead of northeast, toward the Kodesh Hakodeshim

Actually, I do know some people who are careful to face the Kodesh
Hakodeshim at the Kotel.

Steve Ganot


From: Bill Page <page@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 09:48:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Future Times

This question came up in a discussion at our minyan recently, and I hope
someone can help clarify it.
In shacharit for shabbat, the first paragraph of the yotzer concludes "Ein
k'erkecha Hashem . . ." and refers to four times or places in which Hashem,
is or will be without comparison:  "baolam hazeh" [in this world]; "l'chayei
haolam habah" [in the life of the world to come]; "limot hamashiach" [in
the days of the messiah]; and "litchiat hameitim" [at the resurrection of
the dead]. I'm pretty sure what olam hazeh is, but what about the other
three times?  What do we learn about their relationship?  Are they
distinct times, or do they overlap?  Will they occur in a particular



From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 16:50:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gelatin

One writer states:
> b) My married son was at a Shiur by Rabbi Ovadya Yosef, who also
> permitted the use of gelatin. I could not find it in writing in my
> (admittedly incomplete) set of volumes of _Yehaveh Da'at_ and _Yalkut
> Yosef_ by Rabbi Yosef.

This was published by Rav Ovadiah Yosef in Torah She-bal pe vol 34 and
is an extremely good survey of the various poskim.  Rabbi Yosef rules
that most poskimg do permit gelatin.  (I assume that it will be
published in volume 8 of yabia Omer, which they say is out in Israel.
Does anyone out there want to buy me one and mail it to me.  I will pay
that person.)  

Michael Broyde


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:38:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Internet Address at Agudas Yisroel of America 

      Would anyone know if the Agudas Yisroel of America has an internet 

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:17:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Jewish Brainteasers

     I have at home a whole book of these "teasers".  It's called
"Heicha Timtza".  It's written in English and the title of the book
means, "Where do you find?".  My edition is pretty old so the author may
have put out others since.

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Tue,  8 Aug 95 8:54 +0200
Subject: Re: Kosher cigarettes

Sam Gamoran asked why there were no Kashrut certificates on Israeli
cigarettes. Every year right before Pessach, without fail, there is a
large advert in the papers by the largest cigarette manufacturer in
Israel that their cigarettes are "strictly kosher" and that no YIREI
SHAMAYIM should fear about its kashrut. And every year without fail, we
tear out the advert and hang it up on the wall of cardiology outpatient
clinic at the hospital :-)

Josh Backon


From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:18:44 -0400
Subject: Kosher cigs

Sam Gamoran <gamoran@...> writes:
<<how is it that cigarettes, which are placed in
<<the mouth, don't carry a hechsher on the package?  [This assumes that
<<one is permitted to smoke, an issue which I am not raising at the

   Interestingly, the Jerusalem Post just carried an article on Shifra
Krimolovsky, a Haredi ad agency owner threatened with a boycott by Eda
Haredit anti-smoking activists.  The ad agency specializes in placing
ads for Dubek cigarettes, which actually have a kashrut certification.
(Dubek is Israeli, BTW.)
    The ads Krimolovsky places are designed to ensnare the Orthodox
market niche.  Her symbolism, the Post says, includes depicting packs of
cigarettes placed next to a Havdala candle and spice box -- to get that
after-Shabbos-gotta-smoke crowd -- and her latest ad, in the Aguda's
daily Hamodia, "shows cigarettes with a fedora and a ketuba (marriage
contract) in the background," according to the Post.
    Krimolovsky claims, "I don't encourage smoking, I only encourage
people who smoke to switch from another brand to Dubek.  If I didn't do
it, someobody else would."

<Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)


From: Meyer Rafael <mrafael@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:39:39 
Subject: Re: Kosher Cleaning Products

> Why should Pesach be different?  I am under the impression that "fit
> for a dog to eat" is relevant on Pesach as well.

Pesach should be special because it is forbidden to *possess* hamatz (on
Pesach). I would think that removing its edibility will *not* remove it
hamatz status. There are limits to govern "the how far does one have to
go" issue. I am not 100% clear on whether these fit together with ANDs
or ORs. But note that destruction of hamatz by burning denatures it
sufficiently to be deemed non-hamatz.

If rendering of the original hamatz substance to 'dust of the earth', as
in the case of burning, then perhaps a chemist's view of de-naturing
would be insufficient. The economic value of cleaning product would show
is was not dust and would be completely forbidden on Pesach if it had
inedible hametz.

   Meyer Rafael                             VOICE +613-525-9204
   East St Kilda, VIC, Australia            FAX   +613-525-9109


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Meat and Fish, Less than 1 in 60

I was recently told that Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that a mixture of
water and fish, even if the fish component was less than 1 in 60 and
thus batul (nullified), could not be used on meat, as chamira sakana
me'issura (potential danger is treated mosre strictly than potential
sin).  Has anyone else heard this ruling; it is not recorded in Iggerot
Moshe.  Is it found elsewhere?  

Michael Broyde


From: <belenkiy@...> (Ari Belenkiy)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:04:08 -0700
Subject: Numbers and numbers

In the last parsha Moshe said that "G-d multiplied you thousand times
and made as many as stars in the sky".

The first part of that phrase is clear: according to the last poll
(Numbers, Pinchas) still there were ~600,000 Jews.  Therefore, according
to the tradition, those who were under 20 years old at the time of the
Spies expedition where 600 people...  (a small number should not
surprise us if we remember that all first-borns were endengered at a
certain time. Besides this explanation provides us with a number of
years of how long that particular persecution lasted).

However the second part made the whole thing more problematic.
According to "Almagest" there were only 1024 visible stars in the
sky. So if we assume that Hashem did not tell Moshe precise number of
stars then Moshe necessarily referred to that number.  Then it was only
1.024 people (one + fraction) before whom Moshe made his discourse. We
know about two such people: Joshua and Caleb.  So Moshe gave an
excellent approximation: 1.024 versus 2.

Ari Belenkiy


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:29:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Pigeon Remedy

If this remedy really works, it is necessary to conduct scientific tests
(double-blind and all that) so that more people can benefit from it.

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


From: Jonathan Katz <jkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 13:39:29 +0300
Subject: Seventy Languages 

>The gemara in makkot (daf yomi) rules that there must be at least one
>member of the Sanhedrin who knows "all seventy languages".  If mashiach
>were to come tomorrow, and the Sanhedrin were to be reinstituted, how
>many languages would be needed to be known?

Actually, along this same line of questioning, I wonder if anyone has ever 
compiled a list of what 70 ancient languages were required to be known (or, 
equivalently, what 70 languages were in existence at that time).
Anyone know of any sources for this, historical or masoretic?

-Jonathan Katz


From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 16:17:08 +0300
Subject: Re: U'shmartem Es Nafshoseichem

On Mon, 7 Aug in MJ 20,88 Moshe J. Bernstein  suggested:
>Could we please stop quoting the non-verse "u'shmartem es
>nafshoseichem"!! failing that, could someone tell me where it's from??

In exactly the above form I do not know this quotation.  OTOH one can
find in Dvarim 4,15 the phrase (in Sfardi form): v'nishmartem m'od
l'nafshotekhem.  Is that close enough?

Michael Shimshoni


End of Volume 20 Issue 90