Volume 20 Number 93
                       Produced: Wed Aug  9 22:14:16 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Children in Shul (3)
         [Winston Weilheimer, Tova Taragin, Winston Weilheimer]
         [Joe Goldstein]
Ma'arat Ayin and Israeli in Chutz Laaretz
         [Yakov Zalman Friedman]
Reading in Kriat Hatorah (3)
         [Stephen Phillips, Arthur Roth, Tara Cazaubon]
Waiting between Dairy and Meat
         [Avrom Forman]


From: <TAXRELIEF@...> (Winston Weilheimer)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 23:09:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Children in Shul

> I have trouble believing that the two-year old who runs up and down my
>aisle during davening is learning tefilah.  I don't think the 8-year
>old who comes in, often during the musaf shemonah esrei, to chat with
>her mother (often interupting her mother's davening) is learning

Nowhere have I supported 2 year olds running up and down the isle.  An 8
year old is old enough to be taught the meaning of some of the tefillah
and respect for others during davening.  An 8 year old can be taught
that it is inappropriate to bother others during the shemoah esrei.  An
eight year old can learn to participate in the kiddusha responses.  An
eight year old may not have the sitzfleish for an entire service but
again I never advocated that children come to shul to play but to learn
to pray in the adult community.  By the way, why is there so much
distraction and talking in the congregation do you suppose?

From: <Tovt@...> (Tova Taragin)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 06:42:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Children in Shul

I think Freda Birnbaum missed the point of my posting.  The entire
discussion was based on "bringing children who are not of chinuch age to
shul."  I don't think it has to do with "keeping the women and children
out of the way."  One poster gave the solution, which worked well for
us, when we didn't have an eruv and our oldest was an infant/small
child.  -- Hashkama minyan-- whereby the father (or the mother, if she
is so inclined) can go and daven (that is the purpose of going to shul
isn't it?) early in the morning, come home and spend quality time with
the child(ren) (while not juggling a Siddur or Chumash in hand) while
the other spouse goes to shul -- to daven -- later meeting that spouse
with the child(ren) for a leisurely walk home.  Let us keep in mind what
the purpose of shul is -- it isn't a gan! If a child is not ready --
he/she is not ready to be brought into shul -- there is also an inyan
(and I apologize to the more erudite posters I am not equipped at the
moment to quote sources) of not bringing babies with diapers into shul,
not bringing food into shul (which many parents do to keep the kids
quiet) -- it is a makom kedusha and let us remember that.

From: <TAXRELIEF@...> (Winston Weilheimer)
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 23:39:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Children in Shul

> In summary: I think that if done correctly, shul can be a very
>positive experience for todlers, but that it takes a real commitment on
>the parents to make sure that it is one.  (In addition to the positive
>role models that we should be living up to at home as well).

yasher koach!  that is exactly the point and the proper position (IMHO}.
Baby sitting and Jr congregation as a previous poster mentioned is also
great.  But the ban for children under 6 at High Holiday services?  To
deprive a child under six from hearing Kol Niedre or the sound of the
Shofar?  That's not only over reaction but almost silly.  Your way
Pesach seems to me best.  

Winston Weilheimer


From: Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 95 08:53:16 
Subject: Hosafos

Elie Rosenfeld asks: "The common belief is that hosafos Yadded aliyos"
can only be made in the last two aliyos, "shishi and "sheviyi". Is that

  Hosafos can be made ANYWHERE. However, the GABBAI and BAAL KORAY
should make sure to end an ALIYAH with a good topic. (i.e. make sure the
POSUK where they end one aliyah ends a PARSHA, A topic or something, and
that should be good ending, as opposed to ending where they threw Yosef
into a pit, into jail, Or when someone died.

  I remember being told, that for PARSHAS BESHALACH and YISRO when the
Shira, the song after crossing the red sea, and the ASSERES HADIROS, The
ten commandments, are normally read in REVI'I, and the REBBE of the
Chasidisher Stibel normally gets SHISHI To allow the REBBE to get SHISHI
and get this most prestigious ALIYAH 2 HOSAFOS are added BEFOER REVI'I
making REVI'I, SHISHI. Therefore, The REBBE can get SHISHI AND THE SHIRA

Joe Goldstein (EXT 444)                                                        


From: Yakov Zalman Friedman <bfriedman@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 00:05:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ma'arat Ayin and Israeli in Chutz Laaretz

Eli Turkel mentioned in 20, 85 that according to the view that ma'arat
ayin (doing something that may be misconstrued as a forbidden action)
applies even in private only for mitzvot d'oraiso (laws directly derived
from the Torah), an Israeli may do "work" out of Israel on the second
day of Yomtov.

Tosphos to Psachim 52A "BiYishuv Lo..." states that all work is
considered a public matter. The Yom Shel Shlomo, though, disagrees with
this and according to his opinion it may be correct.

A fellow m-j er mentioned to me that a post that appeared today seemed
to strongly speak against Mordechai Perlman. If I in any way offended
him, I wish to publicly appologize. Nothing of the sort was intended.

Yakov Zalman Friedman
	           e-mail : <bfriedman@...>


From: <stephenp@...> (Stephen Phillips)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 95 10:53 BST-1
Subject: Reading in Kriat Hatorah

>From: <mml@...> (Manny Lehman)
>Must the BK see each individual letter or syllable or word (which is it)
>as he intones it. Or may he be looking at the next letter or syllable or
>word as he intones the former. Or may he even take in an entire phrase
>or line and then intone it (perhaps looking ahead or what?)

I recall leining one Shabbat in Yeshivah in Yerushalayim. Right at the
end of a Pareshah my attention was drawn away from the Sefer Torah and I
guess I must have said the last word or two of the Pareshah while
looking up. The Rabbi who was standing beside me made me go back to the
beginning of the Parsehah on the next Aliyah and read it and the next
Pareshah together; he said that the last couple of words had been said
"Ba'al Peh" [by heart] and they should have been said while I was
actually looking at them. Since then I've been most particular to point
with the "Yad" [pointer] at each word as I read it.

Stephen Phillips.

From: <rotha@...> (Arthur Roth)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:14:03 -0500
Subject: Reading in Kriat Hatorah

>From Manny Lehman (MJ 20:85):
> The question put by my friend - a most experienced BK of 20 or 30 years
> experience - How is reading defined?
> Must the BK see each individual letter or syllable or word (which is it)
> as he intones it. Or may he be looking at the next letter or syllable or
> word as he intones the former. Or may he even take in an entire phrase
> or line and then intone it (perhaps looking ahead or what?)

    I can shed some light on this matter but cannot definitively resolve
it; in fact, at the end we will be left with even more questions than we
started with, but here goes anyway.  It is not uncommon for an oleh to
"anticipate" the end of his aliyah and cover the final words with his
talit (preparatory to kissing it prior to making the final bracha)
BEFORE the ba'al korei has finished intoning these words.  For about 25
years, I would always repeat these last few words when this happened
while I was leining, on the grounds that I could not possibly be READING
words that are covered.  Nobody had ever told me to do this, nor had I
ever seen a source for it, but it had seemed so "obvious" based on
ordinary logic that I had never even thought it necessary to ask a posek
for confirmation.  About 2 years ago, a very respected Rosh Kollel was
present when I acted in this fashion, and he took me aside after the
minyan to tell me that there's a difference of opinion about how to act
in such a situation.  He quoted me an opinion that seeing the words just
before intoning them validly constitutes "reading", and that some poskim
advocate relying on this opinion in the above situation in order to
avoid embarrassing the oleh.  I thanked the Rosh Kollel, and no further
questions occurred to me at the time, though plenty of them arose when I
had time to think about it later.
    All of what follows is just my own inference based on the above
incident; I never had any further discussion with the Rosh Kollel about
it, and I have no additional facts or information besides what is laid
out above.  But I infer the following conclusions and resulting further
  1. The Rosh Kollel did not instruct me to alter my personal practice
to follow the "some poskim" that he quoted above.  On the other hand,
this must have been his own practice; otherwise, I can't imagine that he
would have taken the trouble to seek me out to tell me about these
poskim in the first place.
  2. It is obvious that the Rosh Kollel knew of opposing opinions
(perhaps even the most prevalent ones, but that's pure speculation) that
required me to repeat the "covered" words even after considering the
embarrassment factor.
  3. I'd love to know the source of the original opinion that the "some
poskim" advocate relying upon.  The Rosh Kollel's words seemed to imply
that this opinion was quite a general one, but that perhaps poskim rely
upon it in practice only in specific situations.  [My reason for
equivocating in this sentence by using the word "perhaps" will become
clear in #5 below.]
  4. If "some poskim" are motivated to be lenient in the above situation
by the need to avoid embarrassment, it would seem to follow that even
THESE poskim would take a stricter definition of "reading" in ordinary
situations that entail no possible embarrassment.  But is it possible
they are lenient even in more general situations and that the Rosh
Kollel mentioned the embarrassment factor because it was an ADDITIONAL
mitigation in the actual situation at hand?
  5. Does the fact that the words were COVERED while being intoned make
any difference, i.e., is there any basis for being more lenient with the
definition of "reading" when the ba'al korei is looking ahead but the
words are at least open to view?  Maybe in this latter situation, most
(or all) poskim would accept the lenient view that only "some poskim"
advocate when the words are covered.

Thus (based on #4 and #5) there are reasons to argue that the general
situation should be more lenient than the specific one, and other
reasons to argue just the opposite.  In practice, as Manny points out,
it is almost impossible to read well without looking a bit ahead,
especially in a leining situation where an extra split second makes it
much easier to recall the right te'amim (musical notes) for the upcoming
words.  As promised, there are now more questions than we started with.
Any insights would be appreciated.

From: <tarac@...> (Tara Cazaubon)
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 13:38:38 -0700
Subject: Reading in Kriat Hatorah

Regarding M. Lehman's question about reading: I am not a ba'al koreh but
I have studied linguistics, including how people learn to read.  An
experienced reader jumps in sections across a page, "fixing" on a spot
on the page and then fixing on the next spot, and so on.  These are
called saccades.  Your eyes follow the lines on the page, but they
actually see "around" the lines too (which is how you sometimes skip a
line when you're reading).  Because of accumulated experience with the
language, just by seeing the pattern of the words and letters, we read
some of the words and understand what is on the page without really
reading each word or letter.

Words are recognized by the beginning and ending letters and then if
there is still a doubt (i.e. there are several words that have the same
beginning and ending letter) you read the middle letters.  Also, your
brain "edits out" typographical errors and repetitions that don't make
orthographic/semantic sense.  This is an instantaneous, automatic
procedure that takes place in your brain.  Otherwise reading would be a
very slow and laborious process.

The short answer to your question is no, experienced readers do not read
every word.  However, the fact that human beings read like this should
not invalidate the halachic requirement to "read from the scroll".  As
long as you are not reciting from memory, this should not be a problem.

Tara Cazaubon
San Diego CA


From: Avrom Forman <AS402714@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 23:56:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Waiting between Dairy and Meat

Throughout the world there are various minhagin when it comes to the
time people wait between eating meat and dairy. The minhagim which I am
familiar with are: 6 FULL hours, more than 5 1/2, into the 5th, 3 hours,
and 1 hour.

Does anyone know how it came to be that there are so many different
minhagim?  From what I understand, the waiting period is dependent on
the digestion of the food in your stomach. If so, are the various
minhagim based on different opinions on how fast the digestive system
works? If not, what is the real reason for the time delay? Furthermore,
why is there such vast differences in the minhagim (on one extreme
people wait 1 hour, and on the other a full 6 hours).

Avrom Forman   p.(416)663-7187  f.(416)444-6199    <as402714@...>
Avrom's Bamboo & Succah --- "Serving all your Succah Needs"
Canvas & Modular Succahs, Bamboo mats & poles,Decorations,Posters, and more


End of Volume 20 Issue 93