Volume 20 Number 97
                       Produced: Thu Aug 10 21:39:17 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

70 Languages
         [David Charlap]
Bringing Children to Shul
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Da'as Torah
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Fax on Shabbat (2)
         [Tova Taragin, Neil Parks]
Inedible Hamez
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Kippah on the head
         [Micah Gersten]
Old Hebrew books
         [Jack Stroh]
Pigeon Treatment
         [Jonathan Greenfield]
Pikuach Nefesh
         [Elozor Preil]
Pirya Verivya
         [Micah Gersten]
Sanhedren and Seventy Languages
         [Aaron H. Greenberg]
         [Chaim Schild]
Turnpike Chumra
         [Joe Goldstein]
         [Larry Marks]


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 11:58:26 EDT
Subject: 70 Languages

<rotha@...> (Arthur Roth) writes:

>  1. Even if one member knows all 70 languages, the other members would
>still need to hear testimony through a translator.  Why isn't this a
>problem, since all members serve as judges on any case heard by the

I always thought every member had to know all 70 languages.  Was I wrong?


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 01:30:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bringing Children to Shul

      There may be an added reason not to bring children to shul if they 
are in diapers or just after that stage.  There is a halacha that one may 
not pray in the vicinity of excreted waste.  This applies even if it 
cannot be smelled and is in a baby's diaper.

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 01:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Da'as Torah

On Mon, 7 Aug 1995, Jonny Raziel wrote:

> The concept of Daas Torah, in the sense of asking a she'ela and
> receiving a binding psak concerning issues that are judgemental ("shikul
> hada'at"), is foreign to halachic judaism. The term is hardly mentioned
> in the gemara or achronim, and certainly not in the context which we are
> speaking of.
>  However, consulting and taking advice from the gedolei torah to whom
> you are close, is necessary,authentic and legitimate, however it does
> not have the same status as a psak.
>  Accepting a psak is usually confined to definable issues within the
> scope of the shulcha arukh, and the term for that is "din torah", at
> which point, the psak becomes like an oath which the asker has taken
> upon him/her self.

     The writer claims that the concept as applied to issues which are
ouside the realm of Halacha are foreign to halachic Judaism and ARE NOT
mentioned in the Gemara or Acharonim.  While I don't know if i can
refute the last statement, as I have not looked through all of Gemara
and Acharonim, neverthless I found a Rishon which our dear writer has
     The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzva 495) says that one must hearken to the
Great Beis Din (Supreme Court - consisting of 71 members) and do
whatever they command us in the ways of the Torah ... and in anything
which is a strengthening and beneficial in our Torah way of life.  And
he mentions that this commandment of the Torah applies at the time when
the Great Beis Din is in Jerusalem, to males and females alike.  And
then he says that included in this mitzva is that one must listen and
obey in every generation the Great Chochom which is among us (I assume
there was one great Chochom in hois day whereas in our day there is more
than one Great Chochom).
     Therefore, I would submit that Da'as Torah is certainly a viable
institution in our Torah way of life and that when the Great Chochom
speaks, one should listen and obey.  However, since today we have
divergent views among our Great Chachomim, one has to choose HIS Great
Chochom and stick to his views.  This would apply even in areas which
are not to be found in the Shulchan Aruch, as long as they are a
strengthening and beneficial to our Torah way of life.  This would
include who to vote for in an Israeli election.
     Second of all, if a person accustoms himself in a mitzva three or
more times, this practice becomes obligatory upon him as if he vowed
thusly.  Accordingly, if one followed the views of a particular Gadol,
even in issues which were not straight out of Shulchan Aruch, many
times; one cannot decide one day that he would like to decline following
him (e.g. in the case of an Israeli election).  One is obligated to
continue.  Especially since, immediately following the election he will
revert back to his diehard commitment to this Gadol's words.

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: <Tovt@...> (Tova Taragin)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:36:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Fax on Shabbat

Rabbi Y. Frand, in one of his weekly shiurim spoke about this inyan.  I
am not sure of everything he said, but if I remember correctly, I
believe he spoke about the fact that it is a matter of "shvisas keilim"
-- and therefore would not be permitted.  Perhaps someone recalls that
particular shiur and could clarify what he said.

From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 12:38:41 EDT
Subject: Fax on Shabbat

>>From: <jaydena@...> (Jay Bailey)
>We're in Israel and we have a fax machine. What are the ramifications of
>receiving a fax on Friday night (from the States, when it is still
>Friday afternoon)? 

Stick the fax machine in some out-of-the-way corner or cover it up, and
ignore it till after Shabbos.

Alternatively, unplug the thing before candle-lighting so that no one
will be able to send you a fax when it's Shabbos, your time.  Then plug
it back in after Havdallah.

     NEIL PARKS  Beachwood, Ohio    mailto://<nparks@...>


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:26:49 +0000
Subject: Inedible Hamez

Based on the recent discussions of kasheruth certification for inedible
items, including the discussion of such hamez during Pesah, I sent a
private message to Warren Burstein recalling an "argument" he and I had
a little over a year ago (just before Pesah).  He claimed that there was
no problem eating inedible hamez during Pesah.  I claimed that although
there was no problem owning such hamez and deriving benefit from it,
that eating it was certainly prohibited.

Having opened my Mishnah Berurah to 442:4, we are both correct:

The Mehaber says what I said.  The Rema says what Warren says (with the
stiuplation that nullification of the hamez be done before Pesah).

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: Micah Gersten <gersten@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kippah on the head

> So what answer is good to give to goyim who ask "Why do you wear that
> thing on your head?" I don't like "the shechina is above", because it
> seems to place a physical location on God, which is good to avoid in
> discussions with people unfamiliar with Judaism.

Ah, you have the first reason, but the second reason is to be different 
from the non-jews.

Micah Gersten


From: Jack Stroh <jackst@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:14:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old Hebrew books

Does anyone know where I can find old Hebrew Books? In particular, I am
interested in Hebrew Seforim Chitzonim and Yosipon.Thanks.


From: Jonathan Greenfield <sdb@...>
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 07:43:00 PDT
Subject: Pigeon Treatment

I had heard about this treatment many years ago while living in Israel. 
 Although I have never witnessed the procedure myself I can describe the
experience that my brother witnessed.  He had the opportunity to view
the process on 2 occasions both times for members of his Charedi
community and both times accompanying his Rosh Yeshiva and others.  My
brother was **extremely** skeptical of the process until he witnessed it
for himself from close up and he is now a believer.  I also do not think
that his Rosh Yeshiva, who is a greatly respected Talmid Chacham, would
have participated in such a procedure if it did not have some root or
acceptability in the Halachic world.

In both cases the treatment was administered to patients suffering from
Jaundice (Yellow Fever) rather than Hepatitis.  In one case it was
administered to a male patient by males and in a different room to his
wife by females (for zniut reasons I imagine).  A fairly large number of
pigeons was brought to their home and one by one the pigeons were placed
and held, pigeon's anus to patient's navel.  The first pigeons reacted
fairly violently quite immediately and died within minutes.  The second
died after a slightly longer time and so on and so forth until the last
did not die.
 My brother told me that he scrutinized the whole process from several
feet away and, other that the minimal firmness of grip you would have to
maintain to keep the pigeon in place, observed no undue pressure or
squeezing on the pigeons that could otherwise be attributed to their
violent reaction and subsequent deaths.  The pigeons that died were
carefully placed into a bag to subsequently be burned.  In both cases
the patients felt some degree of immediate relief and were well enough
to leave their sick beds within days.

I do have an article pertaining to this topic written in an English
periodical that originated in Israel (somewhere in my house).  I also
have a Hebrew newspaper clipping (Yediot or Maariv) dating back to
10/5/84 describing, rather mockingly, a "rush" on pigeons at Machane
Yehudah Market in Jerusalem by Charedim from Meah Shearim following an
outbreak of infectious jaundice there.

Now as for references from a Judaic source, I found one in a book called
"Sefer Ta'amey Haminhagim U'Mekorey Hadinim" which (published by Eshkol
in Jerusalem).  While the beginning of the book list reasons for various
minhagim (Jewish customs) the back of the book describes many rather
unconventional remedies for a gamut of human ailments.  For Jaundice it
simply states and I'll loosely translate),

"He shall take a male pigeon for a male and a female pigeon for a
female, and shall seat it upon his navel, and the pigeon shall draw out
all the jaundice to completion, and the pigeon will die.  It has been
checked.  (Sefer Segulot Yisrael)"

I was told that only a few of the remedies in the book are followed by
the word "baduk", "it has been checked", meaning that the author has
verified the usefulness of the remedy.

I do not have the Sefer Segulot Yisrael but if someone does and can shed
further light on other Judaic sources for this procedure it would be


From: <EMPreil@...> (Elozor Preil)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:46:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Pikuach Nefesh

> When asked why he was so _meikil_ (lenient)
>with questions dealing with Chilul Shabbat, he replied, "I'm not. I'm
>just _machmir_ (stringent) in matters dealing with Pikuach Nefesh."

I believe I heard that Rav Chaim Soloveichik (Brisker Rav) was the
author of this quote.


From: Micah Gersten <gersten@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Pirya Verivya

If I remember the halacha correctly, one who cannot bear children due to
physical problems is patur(exempt) from this mitzvah.

Micah Gersten


From: Aaron H. Greenberg <greenbah@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sanhedren and Seventy Languages

I remember hearing that the reason members of the Sanhedren had to know
the seventy languages was to insure that they were not only Talmidei
Chachamim but wordly people with knowledge of larger world (not just the
Yeshiva Velt) as well.  Hence, knowing how to operate a computer
translator would not be a sufficient substitute.

Aaron Greenberg


From: <SCHILDH@...> (Chaim Schild)
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:46:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tefillin

This week in Vaetchanan, the final two parshiyot in the Tefillin are
mentioned.  The other two are in Bo. Given Devarim was written after
Matan Torah...was there a time (during the years in the desert) when
tefillin only had 2 parshiyot...i.e. the rosh had four sections but only
two filled ? Sources please. Any deep meaning to this ?



From: Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 08:20:16 
Subject: Turnpike Chumra

Steve White writes: " here's another "driving chumra" for you, which I
attribute to Rabbi David Levy, then of Wichita, KS, and now (I think) of
Kitchener, ON: Given even waiting time, you should always go to the
staffed toll giving the toll collector parnassah (a living). Also, one
should greet the toll collector cheerfully. This does not apply if the
staffed line is longer."

  This "Chumrah" Has been attributed to Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT"L (See
the art scroll) Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT'L (ibid) And Reb Aaron Kotler
ZT"L (Heard from one who was there). In all cases the reason given by
these Gedolim was KOVOD HABRIYOS giving respect to a human being, by
making him feel useful, as opposed to making him feel unneeded by going
to the toll machine.



From: <marks@...> (Larry Marks)
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 13:00:38 EDT
Subject: Whey

Could you discuss the kashrut of whey? Is there "kosher" whey? My
mother-in-law said it's "pareve".  It was listed as part of the
ingredients for an item.

thank you
larry marks

[I was under the impression that it was a milk derivative and as such
dairy. Mod.]


End of Volume 20 Issue 97