Volume 21 Number 12
                       Produced: Fri Aug 18  0:10:50 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cutting Hallah
         [Francine S. Glazer]
Daf Yomi mailing list--where?
         [S.H. Schwartz]
Finishing the Posuk if one read Hashem's name
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Hair Covering and Heads
         [Shaya Karlinsky]
Hair coverings et al
         [Steve White]
Harav Es Rivenu
         [Josh Rapps]
Italics, Upper Case and Shouting
         [Joe Goldstein]
Italics, Upper Case and Shouting
         [Dena Landowne Bailey]
Noise in shul
         [Constance Stillinger]
Ohel regarding a dead person
         [Mordechai Perlman]
One-Time-a-Year Brachot
         [Gary Fischer]
OU  vs. OU Pareve
         [Dan Wyschogrod x0936 ]
Rabbinical Support for "Land for Peace"
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
Talking in Shul
         [Jan David Meisler]
Teaching the Bible as Literature
         [David Kaufmann]
Unusual Berachot
         [David Charlap]
Unusual Brachot
         [Carl Sherer]


From: Francine S. Glazer <fglazer@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:20:42 -0400
Subject: Re:  Cutting Hallah

Richard Friedman writes:
>      David Cooper asked (MJ 20:98) about customs for cutting hallah on
> Shabbat.  Regarding his first-listed practice (hallot one above the
> other; cut the bottom one Friday evening; cut the top one at Shabbat
> lunch) I have heard an explanation but can provide no source.  The two
> hallot symbolize male and female, or specifically, husband and wife.
> The upper one is the male, and the lower one is the female.  (This may

I have also heard this explanation.  A question (and no disrespect is
intended!): If the wife makes hamotzi for the house, should she cut the
top hallah on Friday evening?

Fran Glazer


From: <shimmy@...> (S.H. Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:46:00 -0700
Subject: Daf Yomi mailing list--where?

I remember seeing a Daf Yomi mailing list somewhere on the net a while back.
I've tried the J-1 and Shamash listservers, but cannot find it.  Can someone
please send me a pointer?

[There used to be one on Shamash, but I think it went out of
business. Mod.]


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 03:29:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Finishing the Posuk if one read Hashem's name

     I believe Avrom Forman asked recently about the reason for the 
following procedure.  If a Torah reader makes an error in pronunciation 
of a word in a posuk and only realizes it after he has said Hashem's name 
in that posuk, the common custom is to finish reading the posuk and then 
to reread it correctly.
     I asked couple of Rabbonim here in Toronto and these are the answers 
that I received.  Rav Shlomo Miller shlita, told me that if one is in 
doubt if he made an error, he should finish the posuk and then reread it 
because maybe he read it correctly the first time and we have a rule that 
any posuk which Moshe Rabbeinu did not make a pause in, we do not 
either.  However, if he is sure that he made a mistake, then there is no 
reason to finish the posuk, because in fact he never really started a 
posuk yet anyhow.
     Rav Elisha Shochet shlita told me that the reason for the minhag to 
finish the posuk is because of the opinion of the Derech Hachaim that 
even if the reader makes a mistake which changes the meaning of a word, 
we do not stop the reader.  Meaning, even if he made such a mistake, he 
can continue without stopping.  Therefore, the reader should finish the 
posuk in any case and then reread it.

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: Shaya Karlinsky <msbillk@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:56:33 +0300 (WET)
Subject: Hair Covering and Heads

Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...> writes in a posting "Subject:

>Actually, as the halakhic term indictates [kisui rosh = covering of the
>head], women are supposed to cover the head.  Not hair.  Hence the
>variations in "how much hair" women cover.

     While the term in modern Hebrew has become "kisui rosh" I would like to
request a traditional (say from mid 19th century or earlier) source where 
this phrase is used.  To the best of my knowledge, the Halacha requires 
the HAIR to be covered.  Any HALACHIC ruling (as opposed to literary use) 
emphasizing that a woman's HEAD must be covered would be appreciated and 

Shaya Karlinsky
Darche Noam Institutions


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 00:09:26 -0400
Subject: Hair coverings et al

I wouldn't for even a minute want to cut off discussion of this
important issue; it seems to me that the halachas we deal with on a
regular basis deserve periodic discussion.  But I did want to point out
that this topic was covered at some length a while back (say, about
volume 5, plus or minus 3), and anyone newish here wanting to dig into
detailed sources (such as covering always, from erva [nakedness],
vs. covering only outside one's home, from sotah [suspected adulteress])
could go back there and check.  Does Avi or anyone else have exact
references?  By the way, I don't think the issue of unmarried women got
a lot of play then.

[OK, here is what I see:

	Girls Hair Coverings [v8n37]
	Hair [v8n7]
	Ironic Aspect of Hair Covering [v8n58, v8n65]
	Married women covering their hair [v8n37]
	Women"s hair covering [v8n37]
	Women & Prayer, Kaddish, & Hair [v7n92]
	Women's Hair Covering [v8n48, v8n75]
	Women and Hair [v7n100, v7n102]
	Women and Hair Covering [v7n106, v8n1, v8n15]


From: <jr@...> (Josh Rapps)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:00 EDT
Subject: Harav Es Rivenu

I believe that we recite Harav Es Rivenu following the Megillah
both at night and in the morning. Unless we are looking at
1 "day" berachos I think this one is out.

-josh rapps


From: Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 07:50:19 
Subject: Italics, Upper Case and Shouting

It was not! I just have a habit of capitalizing hebrew/yiddish words.
(there are times when setting apart a hebrew word defines it as such and
not a mis-spelled english word, or an english word that does not make
sense in that context. do you chop what I am trying to say?) (If not I
meant chop in yiddish as in grasp, understand. See?)

However, since there were so many of them it seemed as if I was

Sorry I will try to "whisper" in the future!

(When I DO get excited in Email I do not "shout" it just motivates me to
respond, period!)


From: <jaydena@...> (Dena Landowne Bailey)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 12:15:18 PDT
Subject: Italics, Upper Case and Shouting 

Mail-Jewish is shouting because e-mail does not support italics!!!
(commonly used in English text to denote words from another language) I
personally think that shouting, no matter how disconcerting, is better
than using _these_ lines to denote underlining. It's *very* hard to read
with those lines, which I've seen used as well.

Dena Landowne Bailey :)
Rechov Rimon 40/1  Efrat, Israel
PO Box 1076
Phone: 02/9931903
E-mail: <jaydena@...>


From: Constance Stillinger <cas@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:09:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Noise in shul

I thought of another possible reason why Orthodox shuls might be
noisier---the seating arrangement and acoustics.  The Conservative and
Reform synagogues I've seen have mostly resembled churches---big, formal
with pews or fixed seats, no space in the back, and narrow aisles making
it difficult to move around or chat.  Also the acoustics in these places
have seemed to make it harder to hear and therefore harder for people to
chat (and even if they are doing the same amount of talking, it makes
less apparent noise).

Dr. Constance A. (Chana) Stillinger        <cas@...>
EPGY, Stanford Univ.   Morris's Mommy   "Hoppa Reyaha Gamogam" (Lev. 19:18)


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 04:53:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ohel regarding a dead person

     Could someone please quote a halachic source that says that making a 
ring of hands around someone is called an Ohel.  I can't see any 
comparison between this and an Ohel.  Second of all, it was mentioned 
that some take a car through the cemetery but are careful of passing 
under trees that also hang over graves.  It would appear that as long as 
the car windows are closed, the car has the status of a shida teiva 
umigdol (different types of boxes) and would function as something which 
would prevent the passage of tuma to the person.

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: Gary Fischer <gfis@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 14:23:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: One-Time-a-Year Brachot

It was posted that the bracha after the Haftorah on Yom Kippur is
included in this category.  But we say two haftorahs on Yom Kippur
(shacharit and mincha).  Are they different brachot or was the
inclusion of this bracha an error?

Gary Fischer, MD
University of Pittsburgh


From: <danw@...> (Dan Wyschogrod x0936 )
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 15:16:05 EDT
Subject: OU  vs. OU Pareve

This may very well have been discussed before in this forum, but as an
occasional browser I've missed this.  On products that have OU Pareve,
OU Dairy or even OU Meat, the status of the product with respect of
Milchig and Fleishig is clear.  For products that only have OU with no
other markings, what conclusions can be drawn with respect to their
milk/meat/pareve status?

Finally, there's an oddity I've noticed that I'm wondering if anyone can
explain.  I am, like many other Jews of my age, lactose intolerant.  I
use Lactaid brand milk of the 100% lactose free variety.  The package
has both an OU and a K!!!  What could possibly be the reason for this?

Daniel Wyschogrod
MIT Lincoln Laboratory


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 13:32:45 EDT
Subject: Rabbinical Support for "Land for Peace"

A friend of mine has asked me what technical justification is given for
supporting the concept of turning over parts of eretz yisroel in return
for the promise of peace.  What published or unpublished analyses can I
refer him to?

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:19:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Talking in Shul

A couple comments were made about the quiet in Conservative and Reform
shuls and the talking in Orthodox shuls.  An explanation I read in a
couple messages seemed to indicate the assimilation in Conservative and
Reform shuls.  This developed from either Goyish prayer services or from
the Germans strict attitude in general.  While these might be great
explanations for the quiet in shuls where it is quiet (whether
Conservative, Reform or Orthodox for that matter), it doesn't explain
the talking in Orthodox shuls.  It may have been always noisy in shuls
historically, and thus in the Orthodox shuls it is also noisy.  This
might explain the noise and hum of people davening, but it doesn't come
close to explaining the noise and hum of people talking in shul.



From: <kaufmann@...> (David Kaufmann)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:22:26 -0600
Subject: Teaching the Bible as Literature

Given the rise of Jewish Studies departments in universities, it seems
likely that observant Jews (either as rabbis or Ph.D's.) will be asked
to at least teach an adjunct course or two. Some courses should pose no
problem. Some might.

For instance, can/should a frum person teach a "Bible as Literature"
course, assuming he/she can pre-set certain parameters (i.e., which
commentators can be used, what areas are open for discussion). Some
secular scholars (Alter, Steinberg, etc.) have applied "normative"
literary analytical techniques to Biblical "narrative" and "poetry."
Can/should an observant Jew teach such analysis?

The question arises from a discussion of haskafah [viewpoint/outlook]:
are the apparent patterns and structures found in Tanakh - and which
parallel various literary structures and genres (though obviously not
content) - of any significance, either as a mode of communication or
indication of meaning? If the mephorshim (Rashi, Radak, etc.) don't
discuss narrative form, but explain individual words, for example, does
that mean narrative form per se is irrelevant? Does it take kedusha out
of Torah to note the appearance of what in literature would be
structures routinely examined?


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 15:19:30 EDT
Subject: Unusual Berachot

There's one I remember saying in 7th grade.  Bircat Ha-shemesh
(or was it bitcat ha-chama, I forget which).  it's said once
every 28 years, when the sun is in the same place it was at the
time of the Creation.  I was lucky to have gone to a frum grade
school - the rabbi/principal had us all assemble on the athletic
field to say the bracha.


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 0:11:25 IDT
Subject: Unusual Brachot

One poster writes:
> Some other brachot that have fallen out of use:
> Meshaneh Haberiot (If one sees a black person or a "nanas" (pineapple?) 

Actually a "nanas" is a dwarf.  A pineapple is an "annanas".

> She'asah et Hayam Hagadol (on seeing the Mediterranean).

I understand that this Bracha is to be said any time one sees the
Mediterranean for the first time after more than thirty days.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


End of Volume 21 Issue 12