Volume 21 Number 14
Produced: Sat Aug 19 23:27:03 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chamra d'Medina and decorum
[Art Werschulz]
Correction on Head Covering
[Shaya Karlinsky]
Jerusalem 2864
[Avrohom Weissman]
Noise in Orthodox Shuls
[Mordechai Perlman]
Noise in shul - comparing Ortho and non-Ortho (2)
[Richard Friedman, Avi Feldblum]
Quiet Orthodox Shuls
[Michael Lipkin]
Talking in Shul
[Mordechai Perlman]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:15:20 -0400
Subject: Chamra d'Medina and decorum
Hi.
"What do these have to do with each other?" you may well ask.
A couple of years ago, I was in Frankfurt, Germany for Shabbat. This
was an O shul. The decorum in the Maariv and Shacharit services was
impeccable. Everything was *very* formal, starched shirts and all
that. (Mincha was a little, er, chummier; the high Yekke content
vanished, as they moved from the big sanctuary room into a little Beit
Midrash room, and they went from minhag Ashkenaz with Sefardi
pronunciation into minhag Sefarad with Ashkenazi pronunciation.)
So I wouldn't necessarily posit that level of decorum is inversely
proportional to level of observance. (Sounds catchy, no? IT needs a
cute name, maybe.)
BTW, when the Frankfurt minyan made Havdalah, they used beer. I'm
sure that nobody would disagree that beer is chamra d'medina in
Germany. (Please, let's not have any observations about how well
frankfurters and beer go together.)
ADVshabbat-shalomANCE.
Art Werschulz (8-{)}
The opposite of "talking" is not "listening";
the opposite of "talking" is "waiting". --Anonymous
InterNet: <agw@...> <a href="http:www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet: Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shaya Karlinsky <msbillk@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:44:58 +0300 (WET)
Subject: Correction on Head Covering
My Uncle, Rabbi Chaim Karlinsky, z"l always used to say to me
"Otiyot Machkimot" (the letters of the text make us wiser). Always
check it out first-hand and inside. Posting on the fly has again proven
to lead to inaccurate pesentations. Before all the people with CD-Rom
Torah discs come down on my (I don't have one yet..) let me correct my
posting on the head/hair covering source.
In fact the Sifri, on the verse (Bamidbar 5:18) which serves as
the textual source for women covering their hair, writes the opinion of
Rebbi Yishamel that "...it teaches on the daughters of Israel that they
cover 'roshei'hen' (their heads)."
However, the Malbim points out, in line with the Gemara in Sotah
(7-8), that it is clearly referring to the woman's hair, and he explains
what is learned from the refernce to the woman's head. Even the word
"par'ah" which is used in general reference to "uncovered" has its
source in reference to hair. (See Bamidbar 6:5 and other sources)
I apologize for the earlier misleading post.
Shaya Karlinsky
Darche Noam
Jerusalem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <WEISSMAN@...> (Avrohom Weissman)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:17:36 +0200
Subject: Jerusalem 2864
There is so much talk about Jerusalem being 3000 years. How is this
calculated? From what I read King Dovid was crowned in Hebron in
2884. For seven years and six months Dovid had lived and reigned in
Hebron. Then King Dovid decided to move his residence to Jerusalem. That
would be about 2891. Since the year is now 5755, it works out that it is
now 2864 years from Jerusalem becoming the capital of Israel. How do
those who say 3000 come up with 3000?
Avrohom Weissman
<Weissman@...>
University of Cape Town South Africa
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 05:01:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Noise in Orthodox Shuls
My experience is that in yeshivos, the noise level is very low. I
guess people who daven there have an acute recognition as to the
sacredness of the place. As to why the noise levels in shuls are
considerably higher than in a Conservative or Reform temple. I think it
could be for two reasons. Firstly, in those temples the main activity is
done by the cantor. Who talks during an opera? You just sit back and
listen in admiration. However, in an Orthodox shul, you have some fellow
that is praying at the Omud and sometimes swallows his words, sometimes
is off tune, not the greatest thrill to listen to. So people who have
not enough awe for the place are bored and need to find something to do.
Secondly, and this is a more metaphysical reason. When people go to a
proper shul, the Yetzer Horo is at work there, trying to get them to
sin. So he puts all his energy into making them committ this heinous
crime of talking in shul during Krias hatorah, Chazoras Hashatz, and
Kaddish. he utilizes the reasons above to make it attractive. However,
in a temple the Yetzer Horo has them where he wants them already, all he
has to do is provide some entertainment to keep them there.
Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard Friedman <RF@...>
Date: 18 Aug 1995 10:25:10 EDT
Subject: Noise in shul - comparing Ortho and non-Ortho
I was interested in the posts about comparative levels of noise in
Orthodox and non-Orthodox shuls. The consensus seemed to be as follows.
Technically, the noise violates various prohibitions on talking during
davening, during hazarat hashatz (repetition of the amida), during Torah
reading, during kaddish, etc. However, we should understand that this
does not (God forbid) reflect a routinization of what ought to be
sacred. Rather that it shows that members of these shuls feel at home
there, and thus do not feel the need to be on their best behavior. We
should be gratified in spite of the technical halachic violations, in
that the members of these shuls feel much more comfortable there than
members of non-Orthodox shuls, because they attend much more frequently.
As one whose primary synagogue affiliation is with a Conservative
shul, I share with many members of the Conservative movement a distress
that the movement has not been more successful in getting its members to
keep kosher. But I now understand that deep down, this does not reflect
a reluctance to accept the demands of God's law in all aspects of our
daily lives. Rather, it shows that members of these shuls are
comfortable with the entire world created by the Holy One, Blessed be
He, and a desire to derive enjoyment (hana'ah) from all edible things
that He created, in all sorts of combinations. And I should be
gratified in spite of the technical halachic violations, in that members
of these shuls feel more comfortable eating so many kinds of God's
creations because they appreciate the Creation more.
Richard Friedman
<rf@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 22:37:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Noise in shul - comparing Ortho and non-Ortho
Richard Friedman writes:
> I was interested in the posts about comparative levels of noise in
> Orthodox and non-Orthodox shuls. The consensus seemed to be as follows.
> Technically, the noise violates various prohibitions on talking during
> davening, during hazarat hashatz (repetition of the amida), during Torah
> reading, during kaddish, etc. However, we should understand that this
> does not (God forbid) reflect a routinization of what ought to be
> sacred. Rather that it shows that members of these shuls feel at home
> there, and thus do not feel the need to be on their best behavior. We
> should be gratified in spite of the technical halachic violations, in
> that the members of these shuls feel much more comfortable there than
> members of non-Orthodox shuls, because they attend much more frequently.
I am distressed that you see that as the concensus. I by no means think
that is true, and that the "explanation" given above, which was
presented by an earlier poster, is in my view a rationalization of tha
action and nothing more. To say that we "should be gratified in spite of
the technical halachic violations" cannot be consistant with a view that
one is an Orthodox Shul. Unfortunately, the problem of talking during
davening goes back at least to the time of the Rambam, who saw it as such a
serious issue that he basically abolished the Repetition of the Ameda
(going to a Haicha Kedusha - "loud" Kedusha) in his community. It is
something that must continue to work hard to overcome, but recognize
that it is not easy to change peoples behaviour.
I consider myself lucky to daven in a shul where keeping quiet during
davening is considered important to the Rav and congregation, and I
would say that it is a significant issue in my choice of shul.
Avi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <msl@...> (Michael Lipkin)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:20:27 +0500
Subject: Quiet Orthodox Shuls
Conservative and Reform aside there are orthodox shuls that do remain
quiet. In my community there are 3 basically centrist shuls. One is
very quiet, one is moderately noisy, and the third is quite noisy. I
think that there is nothing particularly unique about those davening in
the quiet shul. In fact many of those people, when davening in the other
shuls, are themselves quite talkative. And, conversely, some of the
most talkative people in the noisy shuls are perfectly well behaved in
the quiet shul.
Based on these purely anecdotal unscientific observations (which I guess
makes me about as qualified as everyone else posting on this subject:) I
think there are several external factors which create an appropriate
shul environment.
- Enforcement. Constant, reliable enforcement of proper decorum by the
Rav and/or officers.
- Acoustics. The ability of all congregants to easily hear what's going
on in the service at all times. Likewise the ability of those in charge
to be able to hear people talking, even in the back. Also, the
limitation of extraneous noise coming from the hallway/lobby.
- The size of the shul. Both the physical size of the sanctuary and the
number of people davening there.
The quiet congregation has a well designed, relatively small sanctuary
with great acoustics. The noisy congregation meets in a large gymnasium
with concrete floors, walls, and no ceiling. The moderately noisy
congregation has the largest number of people, a "real" sanctuary but
with horrible acoustics (rumor has it that the architect assumed that a
sound system would be used), and lots of noise filtering in from the
hallway.
I surmise that over time some people will choose to daven at the quiet
shul because it's quiet and some in the noisy shul so they can talk.
But I don't think this is a major factor.
OK, fire away.
Michael
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 02:37:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Talking in Shul
Talking in shul is a pretty bad thing. Included in forbidden talk
in shul is talking about mundane issues. This is forbidden even not
during the davening (Shulchan Aruch siman 151:1). I believe it is the
Shach (Sifsei Kohen) who mentions that a shul where the proper honour is
not shown to it, especially in this manner, will Chas v'sholom, become a
church. Also I remember that after the massacres of Tach V'tat (5408,
5409) by Chelminitzki ym"sh, the G'dolim of the time with the Tosfos Yom
Tov at their head came to the conclusion that the great destruction
occurred because of this sin. Those who are able and have courage should
take the bull by the horns and make crusades in their shuls against this
sickness.
I remember being in one shul where an active member went around to
the ten biggest talkers and got them to pledge not to talk in shul,
period. He then put up a big poster in the lobby announcing this new "No
Talkers Club" and publicly displayed the names of those who pledged, and
asked for others to join. It worked for a while, until he himself left
the shul. He also asked the Rabbi to introduce into the minhagim of the
shul the saying of the Mi Shebairach that the Tosfos Yom Tov composed
specifically for people who do not talk. It's full of every blessing
that anyone would want. And he asked the gabbai to announce before that
it is being made and why it is being made. This unfortunately was not done.
I have translated the Mi Shebeirach here so that readers will have
an idea what its content is.
"The One who blessed our fathers; Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov, Moshe,
and Aharon, Dovid and Shlomo; He should bless everyone who guards his
mouth and tongue from talking during davening. Hashem should protect him
from every trouble and distress, from every plague and illness; and all
the blessing of the Torah, Nevi'im and K'suvim should rest upon him; and
he should merit to have children who will live and last (presumably not
die in childbirth); and he should be able to raise them to Torah, Chupa,
and good deeds; and he should be able to serve Hashem our G-d always with
truth and sincerity, and we should say Amen."
Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 21 Issue 14