Volume 21 Number 16
                       Produced: Sat Aug 19 23:37:00 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

B'chezkat Halav
         [Dennis Wolff]
Brocho of M'shaneh Habrios
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Chazak Chazak
         [Carl Sherer]
E-Mail and Fax on Shabbos
         [Carl Sherer]
Electricity on Shabbat
         [Samuel M Blumenfeld]
Fax and Mail on Shabbat
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Morality and Halacha (2)
         [Michael Lipkin, Avi Feldblum]
Nachas Unlimited
         [Moishe Friederwitzer]
         [Moshe Koppel]
Which challah to cut
         [Micha Berger]
Zodiac signs
         [Steven F. Friedell]


From: Dennis Wolff <wolffjrslm@...>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 16:29:48 GMT
Subject: B'chezkat Halav

Can any readers help me understand a halachic term I see often in Israel
(usually on kashrut certificates in bakeries): "Products here are
'Chalavi or BeChezkat Chalav'".

What is "BeChezkat Chalav"?

If I had to guess, I'd say that it refers to products containing only
pareve ingredients that are baked in ovens where milchig cakes had been
baked recently.  If I remember the Rama on Yoreh Deah 108 (which talks
about cases of "tachat machvat achat" and "zeh achar zeh") correctly, I
can understand such products being either [what we call]
"milchig/chalavi" or "pareve".  But what's "BeChezkat Chalav"?  Can I
eat such products after meat without waiting 6 [or however many] hours?
Can I re-heat them in "fleishig" utensils?

Zvi Wolff
tel (home): 972-2-630484  
fax (work): 972-2-612340
e-mail: <wolffjrslm@...>


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 02:42:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Brocho of M'shaneh Habrios

     This brocho of M'shaneh Habrios is also to be said on seeing and 
elephant or monkey for the first time.  I remember when we took my little 
brother to the zoo for the first time when he was four years old, we 
coaxed him through the brocho.  Mind you, we couldn't be yotze with that 
brocho, but it was interesting to hear someone say it nevertheless.

Mordechai Perlman
Ner Yisroel Yeshiva of Toronto


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 16:29:32 IDT
Subject: Chazak Chazak

For those who are interested, in Avraham Yaari's "Toldot Chag Simchat
Torah" (Mossad HaRav Kook) there is a discussion of various minhagim
regarding finishing the Torah and saying Chazak Chazak on Pages 74-75.
While these customs relate to finishing the Torah, one may derive from
them what the various communities viewed as the correct Halacha about
saying Chazak Chazak.  He cites the minhagim of (amongst others)
Ashkenaz, Worms, Chabad, Italy, Byzantia (Rumania?), the four communities
of the Venision(?) region of Southern France and Yemen.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 23:17:19 IDT
Subject: E-Mail and Fax on Shabbos

David Charlap writes:
> The argument was that by placing such a FAX or phone call, you're
> causing melacha to be done where it is shabbat (you cause electricity to
> run and motors to go, etc at the destination).  This is not like a timer
> because there's no delay in the action to the reaction.

Wouldn't this only be a problem if we hold that one is obligated in
shvisas keilim (that one's vessels are required to rest on Shabbos
also)? If I remember correctly we hold le'Halacha that there is no
obligation of shvisas keilim on Shabbos.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: <blumenmo@...> (Samuel M Blumenfeld)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 16:24:14 CST
Subject: Electricity on Shabbat

Perhaps someone can enlighten me?  I am trying to understand the basis
why actuating an electric current on Shabbat is forbidden.  I can
understand why it would be forbidden if the result were that the
electric current created "aish", light or heat, but I don't understand
why it is forbidden in the general case.  I have heard lots of
explanations, most of which are connected with either creating a spark
on closing a switch (not necessarily true, nor is a spark necessarily
"aish" if "aish" is meant in the biblical and halachic sense), or that
it is analogous to making a knot (which is also not forbidden if the
knot can be easily untied or is a slip knot, and I would argue that the
switch is analogous to such a knot and that the loop so created should
be regarded as temporary).  I have also heard that it is "boneh" and
"nolad" but I have not yet seen an argument that is other than an
assertion.  This may have been dealt with in an earlier volume of M-J.
If so can someone refer the "definitive" posting to me.

[In my view, the best English language review of this subject is by one
of our list members, R. Michael Broyde. You can find it in:

The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, No. 21, Spring 1991

Michael, any chance there is an electronic copy that could be put up on
the archives?



From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:07:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Fax and Mail on Shabbat

>1: Is a Fax like mail ?  Mail can not be handled or read.

I was taught that mail can be handled -- for sure in Chu'l. And it can
be read if it is open already. That is why numerous religious
organizations do not seal their envelopes (they 'tuck in the flap) in
the USA.

>3: If you knowingly leave the Fax machine on, and it is common
>knowledge, and another Jew who is not observant sends you a fax on
>Shabbos there is a multitude of shailos that come up. (Lifnay E'ver,

A psak I received from Rav Meir Goldwicht (who I beleive gave it in the
name of Rav Shlomo Zalman Aeurbach) was that this is not a problem -- as
the Jew who is Michalel Shabbat is Michalel Shabbat whether or not your
FAX is on, and it is *He* who is the one who decides to send the FAX --
you are not asking him to...

In my opinion, a fax that is received on Shabbos can not be read.  This
This is a separate issue from the one discussed above...



From: <msl@...> (Michael Lipkin)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 08:35:27 +0500
Subject: Morality and Halacha

>From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)

>However, there is a saying that one can be a scoundrel (? -- is that 
>word exactly right) within the law; this suggests that it is possible 
>to be immoral even while acting totally in accordance with halacha.  

I thought that the mitzvah of Kedoshim T'hiyu (You shall be sanctified)
is exactly the overriding halacha that is supposed to prevent us from
becoming "scoundrels" within the law.  So that if one observes Kedoshim
T'hiyu it is NOT possible to be immoral while acting TOTALLY in
accordance with halacha.


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 22:19:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Morality and Halacha

Michael Lipkin writes:
> I thought that the mitzvah of Kedoshim T'hiyu (You shall be sanctified)
> is exactly the overriding halacha that is supposed to prevent us from
> becoming "scoundrels" within the law.  So that if one observes Kedoshim
> T'hiyu it is NOT possible to be immoral while acting TOTALLY in
> accordance with halacha.

That explanation is the opinion of the Ramban. There are other opinions
and explanations of the verse/halakha. So the question can be posed as
being applicable to those opinions. Even according to the Ramban, my
understanding of what he says there seems to be limited to refraining from
taking a permitted activity to extremes (e.g. gluttonous eating). It was
not clear to me that it was meant to be blanket statement of all
morality being defined by halacha.



From: <martin.friederwitzer@...> (Moishe Friederwitzer)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 10:06:00 EST
Subject: Nachas Unlimited

This is not an appeal. I would like to tell you about a unique
organization, we have in our community in the hope that some other
community may decide to establish a similar organization. I am very
proud to be considered a founder and an active member of Nachas
Unlimited.  Nachas Unlimited was founded about six years ago when we as
"Young Grandparents" felt that we wanted to thank Hashem for our healthy
grand children. We wanted to help other children who were not as
privileged as our grand children are B"H.
        Nachas Unlimited supports many baby and child oriented
organizations as well as individual children in need due to physical or
mental disabilities. To date we have donated over $20,000 to
organizations in the United States and Israel.
        We raise funds in various ways. On Purim groups of grandparents
dress up and canvass the neighborhood. We printed and distributed a
daily planner which was paid for by local merchants and contains
addresses and telephone numbers of local residents. All birthdays of
grand children were put on a data base and on every birthday the
grandparents receive a gift compliments of Nachas. When a grandchild is
born the grandparents receive a starter gift set which includes a
diaper, a bottle etc. All the above bring in donations.
        For further information on other activities and for starting a
local group in your community, please E-Mail me.
        In this way may Hashem grant us continuous Unlimited Nachas in
our children and grand children 

Moishe Friederwitzer
 Zaidy to seven Sabras B"IH (Bli Iyin Hora)


From: Moshe Koppel <koppel@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 11:48:45 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Pigeons

	My wife, Channah Koppel, is currently in the final stages 
of preparing a documentary on the "pigeon treatment" for hepatitis. 
She has filmed several treatments, filmed an autopsy of several 
pigeons which gave their lives to the cause, conducted interviews 
with patients, practitioners, doctors, pigeon breeders and sellers. 
She even briefly performed the treatment herself, though not long 
enough to actually kill a pigeon. The purpose of her film is to 
inform not persuade and she has not attempted to draw any conclusions 
concerning the efficacy of the method. Nevertheless, a few points are 
worth mentioning, for whatever they're worth. 
	1. Practitioners of both Sefardi and Ashkenazi backgrounds 
claim old traditions of pigeon cures. (By the way, the Zidichoiver's 
"sgula" book in which this business is first mentioned in print is well 
worth reading. Lice and rust are among the recommended ingredients in 
various potions and I won't even discuss the "cure" for hemorrhoids. 
Not exactly Sfas Emes if you know what I mean; not that I have anything 
against Hungarians..)
	2. When Channah held the pigeons, she was told that she "didn't 
press hard enough". On the other hand, the veterinarian who performed 
the autopsy found no signs of suffocation or ruptures or anything else 
which might explain the pigeons' death (she did only a gross analysis and 
did not examine tissue under a microscope). 
	3. Significantly, one practitioner told her that the pigeons die 
whether or not the patient has hepatitis; the speed with which they die 
is a function solely of how high a fever the patient has. 
	When the film is edited, I will gladly inform anybody who is 
interested concerning availability. Don't look for it at your local tenplex.


From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:21:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Which challah to cut

I half recall a gemara, and until I get my CD ROM shas going, I can't
find it.

However, the story I recall is one where some rabbanim (can't even place
if we're talking tana'im or amora'im) were talking about how evil King
Menasheh was.

Menasheh appears to one of them in a dream, and tells him that he has
no reason to feel superior. "You don't even know why you're supposed
to cut the bottom challah at night and the top one during the day!"

So, when my kid asked me this question, I repeated what I could of the
story, and explained that the reason was lost sometime between the
destruction of the two batei mikdash (temples). Does anyone out there
know where the gemara in question is?

Micha Berger 201 916-0287        Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3211 days!
<aishdas@...>                     (16-Oct-86 - 18-Aug-95)
<a href=news:alt.religion.aishdas>Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Worship,Kindness</a>
<a href=http://haven.ios.com/~aishdas>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>


From: <friedell@...> (Steven F. Friedell)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:43:17 -0400
Subject: Zodiac signs

In vol. 21 #11, Elozor Preil wrote: 
>A few years ago in Israel, we visited an excavated 6th century shul at
>Beit Alfa, and the entire mosaic floor was a Zodiac motif.

The sign for Elul is Virgo, or Betula which fits in somewhat with the
explanation of E.L.U.L. as an abbreviation for Ani L'dodi v'dodi Li, 'I
am my beloveds and my beloved is mine."  More striking, the sign for
Tishri is Libra, or Mozniam, the scales as in the scales of justice for
the days of awe.  This latter one is mentioned in Agnon's Days of Awe
(page 20 in the Hebrew edition, quoting Kad Hakemah).  Perhaps one can
work out other d'rashot for the other signs and months.


End of Volume 21 Issue 16