Volume 21 Number 23
                       Produced: Thu Aug 24  0:44:33 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chinuch and berachos
         [Elozor Preil]
Email dates
         [Cheryl Hall]
FAX and email
         [Art Kamlet]
Fax on Shabbat
         [Ari Belenkiy]
GET issues
         [Pete Hopcroft]
Italics, Upper Case and Shouting (2)
         [Barry Friedman, Yeshaya Halevi]
Kohanim and Cemeteries
         [Warren Burstein]
More on Israeli Car Insurance Policies
         [Shmuel Himelstein (n)]
Once-a-year Berachot
         [Yaakov Azose]
Pinchos and Yiftach
         [Kenneth Posy]
Speed of Prayers
         [Tara Cazaubon]
         [Hadass Eviatar]


From: <EMPreil@...> (Elozor Preil)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 00:04:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Chinuch and berachos

In a message dated 95-08-20, Mordechai Perlman wrote:

>     This brocho of M'shaneh Habrios is also to be said on seeing and 
>elephant or monkey for the first time.  I remember when we took my little 
>brother to the zoo for the first time when he was four years old, we 
>coaxed him through the brocho.  Mind you, we couldn't be yotze with that 
>brocho, but it was interesting to hear someone say it nevertheless.

I wonder about the chinuch value of coaxing a four-year-old to say a bracha
he will rarely (if ever) say again.


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 00:25:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Email dates

Just a couple of points. I use an OLR (off line reader).  This is
software that allows one to write and read Email offline. Different
software packages have different options, but typically they also
provide an "automated" or "scheduled" send function.  This allow the
user to upload and download data without intervention at designated
times (read cheap phone time!!).  While I seldom use this myself, one
could write all day Friday, and have the auto feature send the mail when
the rates change. For example, my current provider has free phone access
all weekend and between 6pm and 6 am, otherwise it is 12.00 an hour.  Of
course, the system dates could vary greatly, depending on how it flows
thru the Net.

When I first started playing (yes, I admit this is all playtime), I
couldn't resisted asking for Jerusalem Local time. The whole concept
that I was accessing a computer in Israel and it was giving me the time
in seconds was awesome. I frequently did it shortly before Shabbat in
Long Beach. That prompted a similiar question, that I sent to the Ask
the Rabbi list Or Somayach has. After a bit of explanation and example,
the result was there isn't any problem accessing the machine from here
before Shabbat, even though it is Shabbat there.

As another follow up to the question of timedate stamps, I've snipped
this response from Tachlis.  Someone asked how they could get a message
stamped 10 hours in the future!!  This was one response.

Included text:

From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>

The time on a message can be incorrect due to:
1) A clock set wrong somewhere on the net (Sender, Receiver, Router, 
PPP-server, etc.) or more likely
2) Time Zone set wrong somewhere on the net (Many SysAdmins forget to 
reset the timezone on their machines when they install UNIX and after 
installation it is somewhat of a pain (as you make the timestamps on your 
files be on 2 different timing schemes...). Some UNIXes default to 
Pacific time -- as the BSD systems originated in beautiful California...)

Cheryl <CHERYLHALL@...> Long Beach CA USA


From: <ask@...> (Art Kamlet)
Date: 21 Aug 1995   2:12 EDT
Subject: Re: FAX and email

There seem to be some posts which distinguish between FAXes and email.
But that line must be blurry; I have been emailing FAXes for some time
now, and know of folks who receive faxs on their PC via email.  A FAX
message is just a type of (binary) attachment to email, and since
technology is successfully merging FAX and email, it is probably not too
productive to treat them as separate things.

Art Kamlet   AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus   <a.s.kamlet@...>


From: <belenkiy@...> (Ari Belenkiy)
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 00:13:43 -0700
Subject: Fax on Shabbat

Jan David Meisler wrote:
<Ari Belenkiy brought the Gemara at the beginning of Beitzah to discuss
<the issue of receiving a fax on Shabbos.  The gemara (according to Beit
<Hillel) forbids eating a "new-born egg".  Therefore, it should be
<forbidden to touch a fax that was received on Shabbos.  Mr. Belenkiy
<also mentioned that the gemara was discussing if the egg was muktzah or
<I think the mishnah in question, the first one of Beitzah on page 2a
<might be misunderstood... 
Then Jan proceeded to discuss Gemara.

Of course, Mishna might be misunderstood. I think it is exactly what
happened with Amoraim who discussed this Mishna. After such a discussion
you can understand why Rambam wrote Commentary on Mishna and NOT on

In fact, in recognition of this failure Amoraim even questioned whether
this Mishna speaks about Shabbat or festivals. They only scarcely hinted
that the problem might be about Definition of Mukze and Nolad. They
failed to understand that one object might simultaneously be Mukze and
Nolad.  So Bet Shamai and Bet Hillel spoke about this: Bet Shamai
thought that if you are a Nolad you CANNOT be also a Mukze. Bet Hillel
argued that you CAN.

In a case of machloket Halakha REQUIRES from us to follow an opinion of
Bet Hillel.

Now looking plainly on the problem with fax on Shabbat we should
recognize that both Definitions are present: it is a Mukze (was not set
up in readiness before Shabbat) and it is a Nolad (if we recognize this
for unanimated objects). I insist on my previous decision: we cannot
touch fax. However we can read it.

Ari Belenkiy

P.S. I think that analogy with postcards is INAPPLICABLE here: 95% of
postcards were set up in readiness before Shabbat and exclusive cases


From: <phopcroft@...> (Pete Hopcroft)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 13:27:25 EDT
Subject: GET issues 

I was wondering if anyone has any information on the prenuptual GET
agreements. I understand that YU has a version that they approve of, but
there are many Agudah-type Rabbonim that are not in favor of using the

I am most interested in the problems with this arrangement, and I am
well aware of the 'get m'ussah' problems. I would appreciate some more
information, as would perhaps other reader of mj.

What are the pitfalls and the advantages?

Pete Hopcroft


From: Barry Friedman <friedman@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 03:51:46 -0400 
Subject: Italics, Upper Case and Shouting 

Readers of the hardcopy edition may not be aware of this issue since I
have been routinely downcasing the vast majority of the uppercase words
and removing the other typographical indications.  It gives the printed
copy a much ``quieter'' appearance.  I occasionally resort to Italics
for titles and emphasis (if needed.)  Bold face does not show up well at
8pt.  I also find spell checking to be a necessity to avoid distractions
in the printed copy.

Barry Friedman

[I would like to publicly thank Barry for the excellent job he does of
turning the email version of mail-jewish into the Postscript hardcopy
version that is available for ftp or web download in the
Postscript/Hardcopy directory of the archive. Mod.]

From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 01:03:30 -0400
Subject: Italics, Upper Case and Shouting

Shalom, Rabbotai:

      In journalism, when someone is writing up a story and wishes to
instruct the typesetter when to use italics, we write -- in caps -- the
words BEGIN ITAL (or BEGIN ITALICS) right at the insertion point, and
then at the close of the words to be italicized we immediately insert
the words END ITAL and continue typing the rest of the sentence.
       If you really hate using the *word* method or the _word_ method,
consider the above.

<Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 08:08:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Kohanim and Cemeteries

What sort of tumah does one encounter in a cemetary if one doesn't step
over a grave or under something that overhangs a grave (such as a tree)?

And is a structure that is open on top (such as is formed by being
surrounded by people) an ohel?

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


From: Shmuel Himelstein (n) <himelstein@...>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:58:48 GMT
Subject: More on Israeli Car Insurance Policies

In addition to the special Shabbat discount car insurance clause, my son
mentioned to me another clause that I found interesting.

Let us note that many Israeli insurance companies require late-model
cars and other cars with a high risk of being stolen to be outfitted
with car alarms as a condition for being insured. A number of people
living in Telshe Stone (outside Jerusalem), a physically self-contained
religious community, noted that the chance of their car being stolen on
Shabbat within Telshe Stone were very low - there are no cars driven in
it throughout Shabbat. Furthermore, if their alarm went off on Shabbat,
they would have no way of turning it off.

The insurance companies accepted this argument, and a few residents of
Telshe Stone have a clause which states that even though their car is
normally only insured if the alarm was left on when the owner left it,
the owner has the right to turn off the alarm for Shabbat and Yomtov and
still be covered.

I may also add that the Shabbat car insurance reduction for whose who do
not drive their cars on Shabbat defines Shabbat as being based on the
official times for the beginning and end of Shabbat, as issued by the
Chief Rabbinate.

         Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem, Israel
Phone: 972-2-864712; Fax: 972-2-862041
<himelstein@...> (JerOne, not Jer-L)


From: Yaakov Azose <yazose@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:38:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Once-a-year Berachot

	I'd like to thank Art Werschultz for posting when the Beracha of
"Hapote'ah Lanu Sha'arei Rahamim" is said. Frankly, I never heard of it
before, probably because it's not said in Sephardic synogagues.
	Another footnote for the moderator is that I've seen some
Sephardic prayer books the Beracha of "Nahem" in all 3 Tefillot
(Shaharit, Minha, and Arvit), while in others I've seen it in only

Yaakov Azose   


From: Kenneth Posy <kpposy@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:40:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pinchos and Yiftach

Rabbi Goldstein writes:
>Therefore this ROV said A kohain Godol MAY be the same. i.e. the Kohian
>Godol HAS to be the proper one for his generation. and Pinchas was no
>longer the proper Kohain Godol. (I know no source for this I am sorry)...
>NOTE: The reason he was no longer the proper Kohain Godol could be
>because after the incident of YIFTACH Pinchos was punished. (Yiftach
     While this provides a political reason why Pinchas would want to
step down/asked to step down, I still am unfamiliar with a source that
ALLOWS him to step down. I am aware that if a Kohen gadol gets a mum
(blemish) this disqualifies him (see Makkos 11b?) But I didn't know that
he could resign or be impeached. If he loses the ability to consult the
Urim V'tumim, is this enough of a disqualification? If not, can the
Sanhedrin vote him out, or perhaps they need to wound him? If a Kohen
Gadol were removed, what would happen to all the murderers in the Cities
of refuge who are released at his death? Would they go free, as in that
     I have also heard the explanation that Pinchas lost the Kehuna
Gedola for refusing to go and release Yiftach from his vow.  I never
really understood this at all. Why does the Shophet (whose position is
more practicle that statuatory) need specifically the Kohen Gadol to
absolve his vow? This is not Catholocism, where a priest has special
powers to remove sins. Why could he not go to any Talmid Chachom, or
three (or have them brought to him)?
     Additionally, there are many midrashim and explanations that
interpret Yiftach's promise to sacrifice his daughter in a figurative
sense. If these are true (and they are just as valid as the medrash that
says Eliyahu was Pinchas) what is the big deal about letting Yiftach
fulfill his vow? If it is true that he actually meant to sacrifice his
daughter, he need no annulment to be released from this vow. No vow to
commit a sin is valid in the first place! If I make a neder to drive on
shabbos, this neder is not viable, although some opinions feel that I
would be penalized for shvuos shav (taking a vain oath).
     It is ironic that for Pinchas was originally awarded the Kehuna for
being zealous in the honor of God. He lost it, according to this
explanation, for that zealotry.


From: <tarac@...> (Tara Cazaubon)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:51:45 -0700
Subject: Speed of Prayers

I have a question about the speed of davening.  In my shul, the prayer
leader does the usual bit, starting out loud on the first part of a
prayer then fading out, then loud again on the next prayer, etc.  My
problem is that I cannot possibly keep up and find it hard to believe
that he is actually pronouncing all of the words of the prayer, because
of the speed with which he is going from one to the next.  As a result,
my davening at shul is much less satisfying than my davening at home,
when I can savor every word and really reflect on the meaning of the
words.  I don't expect them to go that slow in shul, but I would like to
have the time to get the words out before going on to the next prayer.
To race through the prayers like they do seems to indicate a lack of
kavanah and not very respectful to Hashem.  Does anyone else have this
problem, and can anyone explain why this is done?  The service is long,
I agree, and people get tired, but this should not make us cut corners.

Tara Cazaubon
San Diego, CA


From: Hadass Eviatar <eviatar@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:14:59 -0500
Subject: Willows

Somebody asked about a Chava Alberstein song in which the persona
consults a willow tree about her future husband. I don't know that
particular one, but I learned a song in Hebrew when I was a child, which
starts off "Lo bayom velo balayla" [not during the day and not at
night], in which the persona goes to find an old willow tree [shita]
which answers riddles and tells fortunes. She specifically asks the
willow about her future bridegroom. It was sung with the Ashkenazi
parsing, and I have it in my head that it may have been Bialik; I could
be very much off-base here.

Kol tuv, Hadass
Dr. Hadass Eviatar                              Email: <eviatar@...> 
National Research Council of Canada             Phone: (204) 984 - 4535
Institute for Biodiagnostics, Winnipeg          Fax:   (204) 984 - 5472


End of Volume 21 Issue 23