Volume 21 Number 37
                       Produced: Tue Aug 29 22:36:24 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Ability to Agitate....
         [Joshua Brickel]
Domino's Pizza - Jerusalem
         [Shmuel Himelstein (n)]
Kashrut and the Role of the Rabbinate
         [Warren Burstein]
Moving to Eretz Yisrael
         [Dani Wassner]


From: Joshua Brickel <brickel@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 16:36:30 EDT
Subject: Ability to Agitate....

Hmm, seems like my last post brought on a couple of points which need
clarification from me....

As far as Eli Turkel's response, I believe we do not hold as different
opinions as I initially thought from the part of your article that I
saw.  For this time you stated...

> There is certainly nothing wrong with non-israelis offering an
>opinion. That is a far cry from saying I believe so and so and 
>therefore you go out and fight the war based on my beliefs.

No person can force the Israeli goverment to wage war.  You may believe
that what certain people are advocating will start the next war.  If it
is this type of speach you are against, then here we part company.  I
believe in allowing people to express their beliefs, even if some might
see the outcome of following those beliefs as negative.  (I do object to
someone whose speach puts others directly and immediatly in danger, but
I do not see that as the case here.)  So I guess my question to you is
where do you say it is okay for non-Israelies to voice an opinion and
where not.  I have not heard anyone in a rally in America saying "you
Israeli's go fight!"  For that matter I haven't heard that in Israel
recently either.  What I hear people arguing over is which is the lesser
of two evils.

You also stated...

>I think it is accepted world-over that one country does not interfere 
>the affairs of another.

This has not been accepted in America and elsewhere for a very long
time.  See Vietnam, Korea, South Africa, England in Northern Ireland,
Mexico, China etc.  Not to mention state sponsered "dirty tricks" to
promote changes.

You also stated... 

>I don't feel the two situations are comparable. Jews in WWII or in
>the Soviet Union were an oppressed minority. Israel is a sovreign 
>nation where Jews are in fact (so far) a majority.

Again here I must say I have a problem with your formulation.  Okay,
I'll admit that my examples may have been too simplistic.  But was not
South Africa a majority black, but yet they were opressed.  so it would
not seem minority/majority is the criteria which is generally accepted.
Next, I could construct a minority anywhere if I define my terms
correctly.  Say, the religous zionists are a minority, those who believe
in equal treatment for the arabs in israel are a minority, the settlers
in Israel are a minority (and one might argue under the present
goverment, an opressed minority).  Now as long as friends and loves ones
are opressed (being put in harms way by their goverment), whether the
majority or minority, I would postulate that one can agitate on their

As for the statment of how Israeli rabbis behave, I don't see the
relevancy to my post, if you would like to explain, then I will consider
responding directly to it.

Finally you also stated...

>As to women etc. it is again accepted that all citizens decide a
>matter not only those immediately affected. Thus, women, men not 
>subject to the army etc. certainly have a full vote on all such 
>issues. When the US congress decides to cut a budget they do not ask 
>for the vote of the agency being cut. Similarly such decisions are 
>made by the knesset as the representatives of the Israeli population, 
>the decision is not made just by the population of Yesha even though 
>they are the most affected. As I previously said and stand by 
>ultimately it is the entire population of Israel that will gain or 
>lose by any foreign policy decisions. Jews outside Israel will be 
>affected to a lesser degree but not enough to be able to make such 

okay, my misunderstanding, although obviously from what I said above, I
still disagree with you on who can agitate.  I might add that although
American Jews can agitate, it is still the Israelis, as is proper who
will vote.  I sometimes think people get these two things confused...

Okay now for the other poster... Moshe Freedenberg....first you

>I absolutely agree with the statement that non-Israelis have no right 
>to expect their opinion to be counted if they are not willing to move 
>here and vote and put themselves on the line for their country.  As 
>concerns people who try to bring up a non-issue by asking:

I admire your zealotry to your cause, however, I of course disagree in

You stated...

>There is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON between the two situations.  
>Secondly, Europe did not want or need Jews to emigrate there, and 
>Israel both wants and needs Jewish emigration. The people who are 
>sitting in their comfortable seats in Chutz L'Aretz are missing out 
>on doing a mitzvah by not making aliyah and since the government is 
>elected in Israel, if you don't like what is happening here, it is 
>your responsibility as a Jew to move here and vote!

You mention that in Europe there was no Mitzva to live while in Israel
there is.  This may be true, but it has no relevancy to my argument.  My
argument is whether or not, given that one does not live in Israel, do
they have a right to be able to protest its policies.  Just because one
has no Mitzva to live in Europe, does not give one more of an ability to
protest its actions. One could argue that European goverments where (at
least some) elected.  Besides as I pointed out above in my arguments to
Eli Turkel, that I perhaps picked a two easier target, but as a pointed
out I have not found any convincing arguments to the contrary.

You also stated...

>If you truly care what happens to this Holy land that Hashem gave to 
>us as our heritage, then stop complaining about what you don't like 
>and get over here and vote.  Or are you too comfortable making an 
>American salary and sitting in the central air conditioning?  It is 
>easier than ever before to make aliyah and we have every kind of food 
>and household product that you need, not to mention the financial 
>assistance that the government provides to help smooth your 
>integration into the culture and country.

Once again I must admire your zealotry, but I must repeat my position,
that if a person feels that their friends, loved ones, or anyone else
they care about is being put in harms way by the goverment of their
friends, loved ones, etc.  Then they have a right to speak out.  Yes to
agitate, no to vote.

Finally I will not requote the pasuk you put at the end.  I only state
that you will find a difference of opinion on whether moving to Israel
is a Chiyuv (obligation) or just simply a Mitzva (good deed) if done.
I'm sorry if this goes against your zealous ways.

I have been gratefull for the thoughtfull responses, both here and those
I have recieved privately.

Joshua Brickel


From: Shmuel Himelstein (n) <himelstein@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:53:21 GMT
Subject: Domino's Pizza - Jerusalem

Josh Males writes about the problem of Domino's Pizza in Jerusalem.
Having spoken to the Kashrut department of the local Religious Council,
I was told the following: after three branches of the company opened in
Jerusalem, last Friday there was a big ad telling people that from now
on the Beit Hakerem branch in Jerusalem was going to serve people pizza
as they like it, including with pepperoni, and that it would now be open
7 days a week.

It has been standard procedure of the rabbinate that the religious
council in any city will not give a kashrut certificate to any company
where some branches are kosher and some are not. MacDonald's, for
example, decided that their Jerusalem branch (and future branches in
Jerusalem) will be Treif. They plan a kosher branch in Mevasseret Zion -
10 minutes away from Jerusalem.

As soon as the rabbinate found out about Beit Hakerem, it suspended the
kashrut certificates of the two other Domino's branches in Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, as I understand it, the two sides are talking. A possible
solution might be a name change, to indicate the difference between the
kosher and non-kosher outlets.

Incidentally, before Domino's Pizza opened up in Israel, a local company
opened up a chain named "Pizza Domino". It went through the courts and
withstood the court test. Now we have both Domino's Pizza and Pizza
Domino - two entirely separate chains.

I don't know how much of an inducement (or the reverse!) this is for
Aliyah, but we now have kosher Burger King, Pizza Hut, Domino's Pizza,
and eventually MacDonalds. I think there might also be a Kentucky Fried
Chicken in Tel Aviv - but that's pretty much terra incognita.

         Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem, Israel
Phone: 972-2-864712; Fax: 972-2-862041
<himelstein@...> (JerOne, not Jer-L)


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:00:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Kashrut and the Role of the Rabbinate

Joshua D. Males
>   3) What should the attitude of the religious community be towards a
>   restaurant that openly is mechalel shabbat and sells meat & milk? If
>   Domino's receives a hechsher for its other branches, should these
>   branches be boycotted? Or should they be supported?

This is the case with regard to McDonalds which has a kosher branch in
Rechovot (so I have heard, but look for the teudah before eating).  Are
there people in Rechovot who boycott the branch there because of treif
branches elsewhere in Israel?

It's also the case with regard to the Israeli chain Burger Ranch.  Some
stores have a teudah, others do not (I don't know if they are open or
Shabbat and/or sell meat and milk together or perhaps merely lack a
teudah).  But I don't think there are any treif Burger Ranches in
Jerusalem.  Also, I think Burger Ranches are individual franchises while
McDonalds in Israel are all owned by the same franchise, which could
increase the possibility of moving merchandise from one to the other
(although I also don't see why the same concern wouldn't require that
the owners and all kitchen employees (or anyone else who has access to
the kitchen) of a kosher resteraunt be observant, at least of kashrut).

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


From: Dani Wassner <dwassner@...>
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:47:01 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Moving to Eretz Yisrael

The time has come to stop the talking.

Every day thousands of us write articles, read articles and news and try
to out-do each other condemning the Israeli Government and the "peace

We are all preaching to the converted and perhaps the occasional person
who may not, as yet be "converted."

But, we are not achieving anything. Zero.

The time for words is over. The situation is too serious. The time has
arrived for action. Sitting on our backsides in galut is pointless.
Typing and reading endless messages achieves nothing.

Every single Jew in galut who is concerned for the future of Israel has
only one path open to them- Aliya. We must take it upon ourselves to
move to Israel and strengthen the entire land ourselves.

Only by living in Yesha can we strengthen it and, be'ezrat Hashem, save
it. Only by living in Yesha can we increase Jewish numbers there and
create a greater presence. The more Jews in Yesha, the harder it will be
for the Government to abandon the settlements. The more Jews in Yesha,
the more people there are to resist any pullout. The more Jews in Yesha,
the more people to defend its inhabitants against Arab attack.

Just imagine the Chabad movement, as an example. If every Chabad chassid
who is not involved in kiruv and education work in the galut were to
pack up and move to Yesha the entire equation could be changed. A new
Kfar Chabad (maybe even Ir Chabad) could be built in, say the Shomron. I
estimate that it could have, almost instantly, 100,000 Jews. This could
increase by some 70 per cent the Jewish population of Yesha!!!

And this is just Chabad!! Imagine if concerned Jews across the US as
well as the rest of Galut stopped talking, and moved to Yesha. Even
greater, imagine if they brought with them their savings and reveune
from selling their houses and businesses. The economic boom for Israel
would be incredible.

What is more, all of us talkers could put our talk into action in other

We could attend the protests, the rallies and whatever else is required
to stop this "pieces process." Perhaps, even more importantly, if we go
now, we can vote in the next elections and kick this Govenrment out.

I call on all concerned Jews to take up this challenge. Turn off your
computers and put your ideology into action. As a personal example, I
intend to do exactly that. I have now set this coming October down as my
date of Aliya. I invite you all to join me. If you truly care about the
future of Israel, I'll see you there

PS By the way, you will also, incidentally be fulfilling the basic 
tenents of Judaism and Zionism.

Dani Wassner, Sydney, Australia.


End of Volume 21 Issue 37