Volume 21 Number 41
                       Produced: Sun Sep  3 21:05:41 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Dina Demalkhuta Dina
         [Elhanan Adler]
Earliest Time to Daven
         [Hillel E. Markowitz]
Finding a Lost Item on Shabbat
         [Yitz Etshalom]
First amendment
         [Joe Wetstein]
Gittin and the "Little Sanhedrin"
         [Steve White]
         [Eliyahu Teitz]
Halacha and Morality
         [Andrew Marc Greene]
Kavanah or Minyan
         [Eli Turkel]
Kidushin for K'tanot
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Kippah at the Place of Employment
         [Carl Sherer]
Knots on Shrouds
         [Harry Weiss]
Pinchas and Eliyahu
         [Jeff Mandin]
Post Tisha B'Av Havdala - a Postscript
         [Carl Sherer]
Spark's Gourmet coffee
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Unusual Brachot
         [Josh Males]


From: Elhanan Adler <ELHANAN@...>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 6:41:23 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Dina Demalkhuta Dina

Lon Eisenberg wrote:
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that this
>concept (the law of the land is the law), which is discussed in BT
>Gittin, applies to legal documents, i.e., that a document that is valid
>according to the law of the land will be recognized and upheld by a beth
>din (Jewish court).  I don't think it has anything to do with paying
>taxes or stopping at red lights.

Dina demalkhuta dina, the rule postulated by the Amora Shmuel, appears
in several places: Gittin 10b relates to legal documents, but Nedarim
28b and Baba Kabba 103a relate specifically to tax collection (or its

* Elhanan Adler                   Assistant Director                       *
*                                 University of Haifa Library              *
*                                 Mt. Carmel, Haifa 31905, Israel          *
*                                 Tel.: 972-4-240535  FAX: 972-4-249170    *
*                                 Email: <elhanan@...>           *


From: Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:24:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Earliest Time to Daven

> >From: Joseph Brian London <jlondon1@...>
> The question comes up every year about the earliest time to daven in the
> morning.  Washington, DC where I work is an "early" town where people
> are at their desks at 7 am. If morning davening time was based soley on
> "x" minutes after or before sunrise, that would be difficult to argue
> with.  But I seem to recall, I think gemorrah berachos, saying that one
> can daven when one is able to see folks on the street.  Needless to say,

As I recall, the specification is when one can distinguish certain items
(either the difference between two colors or certain people) by natural
(not artificial) light.  However, most poskim use the solar depression
angle to determine the time.  That is, the x minutes before sunrise is
at Yerushalayim around the equinox and the rest of the year and the
remainder of the world use the equivalent solar depression angle.

I was going to quote from Mai'aimasai but I can't find my copy to do so.

|  Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz |     Im ain ani li, mi li?      |
|   <H.E.Markowitz@...>   |   V'ahavta L'raiecha kamocha   |


From: Yitz Etshalom <rebyitz@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 04:23:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Finding a Lost Item on Shabbat

This past Shabbat, we had a "new and as yet undiscussed" situation - on
the way home from shul with some guests, our guests' 10 year-old found a
tennis ball, somewhat hidden in undergrowth near the sidewalk.  He
immediately picked it up (proudly citing the Mishnayot of Bava Metzia,
Ch. 2 as support) and claimed it.  However, we were concerned with two
other questions:

1) Is claiming a "Metzia" (found item) considered acquisition, such that
it is forbidden on Shabbat?

2) Is this "found item" considered "Muqtzeh/Nolad" (something which was
not in our Shabbat "repository" for use when Shabbat entered), and thus,
forbidden to take?


From: <jpw@...> (Joe Wetstein)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:55:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: First amendment

Just some personal research:

Exactly what rights are we afforded under the first amendment with
regard to supporting our religion (supporting- not literally). For
example, if the SATs were not also given on Sunday, is that something
for which one can go to court? Exactly what rights do we have, and what
do we not have that may be based on institutional policy (a university
not giving weekend exams as part of their own 'religious' policy).

I'd appreciate a legal answer (from a mumche, if possible (expert)).

Yossi Wetstein


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:38:22 -0400
Subject: Gittin and the "Little Sanhedrin"

I'm in no way even 1% as qualified as R' Teitz to reply on that subject.
 First, I appreciate the original poster's efforts to bring it to our
attention; I think things like this are just the type of thing we should
be talking about.

Second, I have to admit that I think there's one good thing about that
"Sanhedrin's" effort: Somebody's trying to figure out a way to break
through this problem on agunot.  (And of course, "Shalom Bayis" [sic.
Big time, sic . . . Big time, sick, too] is trying to be creative about
making it harder!)
 I guess I just feel like there are remedies in halacha, and that if the
community were serious about this, we could make life miserable for men
who refuse to give gittin, within the halacha, and without coersion.
But evidently what we're doing now, so far, hasn't been working, so
halachically, we need to be more creative.  If this Silver Spring
group's idea is excessive, and it certainly seems to be, then let's see
what else we can think of.  What we need is "thinking outside the box,
but inside the halacha."

Hoping for an end to pain ben adam l'chavero (between people),
Steve White


From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:16:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Grammar

While we are on s grammar roll, I'd like to put in a few comments.

A person who reads the Torah is 'the Master of the Reading', or Ba'al K'riah,
not Ba'al Koreh, which might mean a husband or master who reads.  Similarly
for one who blows the shofar, a Ba'al T'kiah, and not Ba'al Toke'ah.

Eliyahu Teitz


From: Andrew Marc Greene <amgreene@...>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:16:15 -0400
Subject: Halacha and Morality

It seems to me that the Gemara makes a distinction between what is legal
under the halachic system and what is the proper thing to do. There are
several places (no exact citations at hand, I'm afraid) where we find
the expression "One who does such-and-such, the sages are displeased
with him" which we take to mean that although the given action is valid,
it is not considered proper.

Similarly, near the end of the first chapter of Kiddushin the Rabbis
spend some time talking about "the righteous person who is not good" and
"the evil person who is not bad", where they distinguish between
observance of the laws and ethical behaviour.

Sorry that I don't have more specific citations handy....

Andrew M. Greene   <amgreene@...>   http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/amgreene


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 13:09:05 -0400
Subject: Kavanah or Minyan

    Let me point out that the tension between kavanah and minyan was one
of the main contriversies between the hasidim and mitnagdim. The
mitnagdim stressed keeping all the laws of Shulcahn Arukh concerning
davening even if it resulted in a lose of kavannah. The hasidim stressed
kavanaqh more and so were willing to daven at odd hours, with singing
and dancing, less decour and many other practices that they felt
enhanced kavannah. In some hasidic circles it is standard practice for
the rebbe to daven by himself and not with a minyan or perhaps only join
the minyan at the Torah reading.



From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 23:37:39 -0400
Subject: Kidushin for K'tanot

          The problem of some fathers abusively using their halachic
right to marry off a daughter under the age of 12 and 1/2, but not
divulge the name of the putative husband, is still present.  I would
like to know if the following idea can be used to nullify that halachic
right and save little girls from being declared agunot (deserted wives).
           (A) The Torah says a father can not sell his daughter into
           (B) The action of marrying off a daughter but not divulging
the name of the putative husband is absolutely child abuse.
           (C) It is a known fact that abused children have a far higher
likelihood of being sexually promiscuous and even becoming prostitutes.
            Ergo, the father is directly contributing to the act of
making his daughter into a harlot, which the Torah forbids.
            Therefore, the father has no right to marry off his daughter
in an abusive manner because it leads to harlotry.
             I welcome comments.


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 7:42:40 IDT
Subject: Kippah at the Place of Employment

Stuart Greenberg asks:
> What are the halachic requirments for an orthodox ashkanazic jew to wear a
> kippah at the place of employment.

See Iggros Moshe Orach Chaim Vol.4 No.2 in which Rav Moshe Feinstein
zt"l permitted going to work without a kippah in certain circumstances.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 95 23:00:29 -0800
Subject: Knots on Shrouds

Yosey Goldstein writing about knots at a wedding compared it to death
saying "When preparing a body for burial there are no knots used in the
shroud or any other way."

A set of tachrichim (shrouds) that are put on a deceased consists of
various places that knots must be tied.  These knots are double tied to
look like the letter Shin.  There is a belt (Gartel) around the waste
(over the coat) and smaller belts around the sleeves which are also
similarly tied.

The above is all correct for male deceased. My knowledge of this is not
from Sforim but participation on Chevra Kadisha.  Therefore, I do not
know about shrouds for women.



From: Jeff Mandin <jeff@...>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pinchas and Eliyahu

Joe Goldstein writes:

> I said, I Think, that Pinchas and Eliyahi were one and the same person.
> ..
> However, I did not find ANYPLACE, ANYONE that says
> they were not the same body and soul! 

See the sefer Kometz Ha-Minchah by R. Hanoch Ehrentreu(Parshas Pinchas)
who says that the Midrash means they possessed the same midah [character 


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 95 8:14:53 IDT
Subject: Post Tisha B'Av Havdala - a Postscript

Last week I quoted the Maharil's Tshuvos on the matter of using wine for
havdala on Motzei Tisha B'Av which is nidche, from which it seemed
unclear what the Maharil's opinion really was.  I gave a caveat that
there is a sefer of the Maharil's customs (BTW there is also a second
book of Tshuvos) which I do not own.  This morning I got hold of the
Sefer Minhagim (customs) in shul.

In the laws of Tisha B'Av note 16, the Maharil states very clearly that
one may make Havdala on wine on Motzei Tisha B'Av.  He does not
differentiate between Tisha B'Av which falls on Sunday and a deferred
Tisha B'Av.  The Machon Yerushalayim edition which I saw states at note
4 that this Maharil is the source of the Dagul Merevava (which is
brought by the Mishna Brura).  I do not recall seeing there a discussion
of using wine for a kos shel bracha (wine which is drunk after Birkas
Hamazon) on Motzei Tisha B'Av.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 07:22:09 +0000
Subject: Spark's Gourmet coffee

Does anyone have information as to its kashruth?  It comes in various
strange flavors; I'm particularly interested in knowing about the mocha
almond and mint chocolate.  It's made in San Francisco.  My friend
suggested that Rabbi Eliezer Eidlitz of Valley Los Angeles Kashruth
hotline would know about it.  Does anyone know an email address for him
or have information about Spark's?

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: Josh Males <jmales@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 14:12:02 
Subject: Unusual Brachot

David Charlap in m-j 21:12 says:

>There's one I remember saying in 7th grade.  Bircat Ha-shemesh (or 
>was it bitcat ha-chama, I forget which).  it's said once every 28 
>years, when the sun is in the same place it was at the time of the 

Bircat HaChamah - not Bircat HaShemesh - is said every 28 years. I
believe it was last said in 1981. I was a junior at the Talmudical
Institute of Upstate New York, and the yeshiva had sent out a copy of
Artscroll's Bircat HaChama as a fund raiser (Has there ever been a
discussion on m-j of IMO an obnoxious technique of soliciting funds: to
mail someone a book and expect them to drop you a donation?). In order
to recite the bracha at sunrise, there was an all-night learning session
(the beis-medrash guys stayed up - the high school guys mostly goofed
off or went to sleep. I went running at 2AM and then went with friends
to a 24 hour supermarket to buy ice cream bars). After shacharis, we all
went up on the roof without having to worry about the $10 "Knass" (fine)
usually given to those caught on the roof. We recited the bracha and
went back downstairs. There was even a reporter there from the
"Rochester Democrat and Chronicle" (I'm not sure what was going through
his mind). To me, it was such a historical event, that when editing the
senior yearbook a year later, on the photo-collage page for our junior
year, my fellow editor (Bill Berlin of Detroit) and I put in the picture
of everybody standing on the roof with their tefillin on.

Joshua D. Males     Talmudical Institute of Upstate New York - 1982
                    Jerusalem College of Technology - 1987 
                    IDF Academy of Military Medicine - 1994


End of Volume 21 Issue 41