Volume 21 Number 44
                       Produced: Wed Sep  6  8:39:13 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Early davening (in DC, or anywhere else)
         [Steve White]
Eiphah Vaeiphah
         [Micha Berger]
Grammar, Hebrew & Yiddish
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Kosher Culinary Schools
         [Steve Kahn]
Parve - Can Parve Taam Basar & Parve Taam Chalav be eaten together?
         [David Brotsky]
Speed of Davening
         [Steve White]
Speed of Prayers
         [Ezra L Tepper]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 08:28:07 -0400
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

I've allowed myself to fall behind a bit on my email here, and so this
week has been a bit spotty on mail-jewish etc, and the next two days
will continue that as I will be on the road again. So, I'm going to try
and get 4-6 issues out today between mail-jewish and mj-announce, and
then there will be nothing until Friday, probably.

A couple of quick notes while I (maybe) have your attention.

If you are sending me email and it is NOT for inclusion to mail-jewish,
PLEASE SAY SO, right in the front of the message if possible. Do not
depend on the reasoning that "it is obvious" that this is a personal
message. Letting me know so explicitly will help me especially if I am
working in a fogged late night mode.

I also want to acknowledge that there are a few messages that have been
submitted and are not in the queue, because I need to get back to the
senders. I've slipped a bit on that and hopefully will get back to
people this weekend, at the latest.

OK, let em get you a set of issues, and then finish getting ready for my
trip. Anyone know of a kosher restaurant in McAllen, Texas? :-)



From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:22:21 -0400
Subject: Early davening (in DC, or anywhere else)

I don't know if mj has ever covered this in detail, and I can probably
do it after yom tov if people are interested.  But the short version of
this is that one _normally_ should not start davening until one can
distinguish blue from green by natural light.  This is normally defined
as when the sun is eleven to twelve degrees below the horizon.  In an
emergency, one can begin to daven at "dawn," which is for lack of a
detailed description now, when one can first see some light on the
horizon.  One opinion on this says 72 minutes before sunrise; others say
twelve to sixteen degrees below the horizon.  The 72-minute opinion will
get you an earlier davening time in the winter, and will buy you about
fifteen minutes (i.e., about 6:13, instead of 6:26, around the time of
the winter solstice, but you better check those times because I did it
quickly, and to make sure your LOR doesn't use different opinions than

That having been said, those hours are the earliest to say Kriat Shema
and Amidah.  So one solution is to start davening earlier without tallit
and tefillin, get to Barchu at that hour, put on tallit and tefillin,
and the procede.


From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 07:52:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Eiphah Vaeiphah

While reviewing this week's parashah (Ki Seitzei), something caught my
eye. "Eiphah vaeiphah lo sihyeh lichah beveisechah - an eiphah and an
eiphah you may not own in your house". An eiphah is a unit of weight. As
an object, it means the 1 eiphah counter-weight used for scales.

Halachah prohibits not just using two sets of weights, but even owning
them.  In Bava Basra 89a, R. Yehudah of Sura makes the uncontested
statement that even unused, the ownership itself is a violation.

As far as I can tell, this reduces the whole set of questions involving
the requirement of doing business honestly with people "outside the
tribe" to pure theory.

For example, am I allowed to cheat the IRS (the US tax service)? Well, I
am not even allowed to own a second set of books.

I think I even understand why mere ownership is prohibited, as the
practice is called a to'eivah, an abomination. To use an admittedly
graphic example, but one which the word "to'eivah" and the Gemara (ibid
88b) suggest, would you own a copy of homosexual pornography? No, of
course not, the concept is inherently nauseating, it is (as the Torah
writes) "to'eivah".

So, how comes we shun homosexuals, but ignore dishonesty in business? I
know a number of times I chose to do business with non-Jews or
non-observant Jews because I felt less likely to be cheated.

Something to think about this Ellul.

Micha Berger 201 916-0287        Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3227 days!
<aishdas@...>                     (16-Oct-86 -  5-Sep-95)
<a href=news:alt.religion.aishdas>Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed</a>
<a href=http://haven.ios.com/~aishdas>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 18:44:15 -0400
Subject: Grammar, Hebrew & Yiddish

Eliyahu Teitz wrote in MJ21#41 correctly that:
>A person who reads the Torah is 'the Master of the Reading', or Ba'al K'riah,
>not Ba'al Koreh, which might mean a husband or master who reads.  Similarly
>for one who blows the shofar, a Ba'al T'kiah, and not Ba'al Toke'ah.

Rambam called the person who read the Torah for the tzibur (=public)
"ha'kore" (Tefilah 11:3, Berachot 1:2, Megillah 4:4) and likewise he
called the person who blew the shoffar for the public "ha'tokeah"
(Shofar 2:4).  Later incorrect development in the language was to add
"ba'al" to these words rather then change the form to somech-nismach
structure. But since this incorrect structure exsited for a long time,
and it is acceptable among Yiddish speaking people, we can not longer
rule it incorrect. Although, those who cherish the Hebrew language
should always strive to say it correctly.

Hayim Hendeles brings in MJ21#42:
>In a recent post, Barry Siegel commented:
	>>It brings to mind the correct term "Seuda Shlishit" versus what
	>>we commonly say "Shala Shudos" which I believe is not correct
	>>Hebrew or Yiddish.
>Obviously, the term "Shala Shudos" (often used) is a sloppy pronunciation
>for "Shalos Seudos" - which means "3 meals". The obvious question is
>why this third meal is referred to with a term referring to ALL 3 meals
>eaten on Shabbos?

"shala shides" means the end of a sentence which starts "le'kayem
mitzvat shalos seudot" (The mitzvah is fullfilled only with the
completion of the third meal). Later development in the language useage
was to use the end with the assumption that the begining was known. This
is not atypical. Long sentences were commonly truncated and the leftover
retained the original meaning. For example "ad delo ya'da" [bein arur
Haman u'baruch Mordechai](Meg. 7b); [Istera belgina] "kish kish karyah"
(BM 85b) (=Empty vessels make the greatest sound), etc.

Aleeza Esther Berger says MJ21#42:
>IMHO "yasher koach" is perfectly correct.  It's Yiddish borrowed from
>Hebrew - the grammar rules and exact form don't need to be borrowed.
>"Shaloshudos" is similar.

Yeshar koach is correct also in Hebrew and not only in Yiddish if it is
said correctly. For example, if I say to someone: I would like to give
you a big Yeshar Koach. But if said as a complete Hebrew sentence then:
"yeshar kochacha / yeshar kochech / yeshar kochachem / yeshar kochachen"
is in order.  The answer is "gam baruch tihiyeh / gam beruchah tihiyi /

The Sepharadim say to a peson who just got an "aliyah" [la'Torah]: [ata
tihiye?] "chazak u'baruch" and the reply is "chazak ve'ematz" and I also
heard the reply "yevarechecha hashem".

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Steve Kahn <SMKMS@...>
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 95 15:56:50 EDT
Subject: Kosher Culinary Schools

A friend of mine who does not have Internet access would like to know
about Kosher culinary schools worldwide. Please send your replies to me
and I will forward them to him. If there is interest I will post them to
the list. Thank you.
    Steve Kahn


From: <DaveTrek@...> (David Brotsky)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 00:04:36 -0400
Subject: Parve - Can Parve Taam Basar & Parve Taam Chalav be eaten together?

I have never heard an answer to a question which arises often for me, as
a vegetarian. Can I eat something parve (neutral, not dairy or meat)
which was cooked in a clean 'meat' pot (used within the last 24 hours
but now clean) together at the same time with parve utensils as
something which is now parve but was cooked in a 'dairy' pot (used
within the last 24 hours but now clean). If the item itself is dairy, I
must eat them separately, but eating one immediately after each other is
ok. Can I consider both items parve, such tha I may mix them or eat them
at the same time?

David Brotsky


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:16:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Speed of Davening

In #32, Joe Goldstein writes:
>    As an aside, and in defense of "Quick" Davening. (and this relates
>to talking in shul) I was talking to my Rov about talking during
>davening and how, thank G-D, our shul is pretty quiet.  He told me he
>feels the reason there is talking by davening is due to a long streched
>out davening.  

A fair point, and I thought that the whole post was a very thoughtful one.
 But perhaps I can add a few additional points, based on my experience
at the amud.

1.  For many reasons, weekday davening and Shabbat davening are simply
not comparable.  A number of people have pointed out that during the
week if you need more time to daven with kavvana, you need to get there
and start early; when davening goes past the specified time, people
start getting jumpy about getting to work, and kavvana goes down the
drain anyway.  (Of course, at ne'ilah, people also are jumpy about
finishing on time.  :-) )

Of course, during most of weekday shaharit, people are busy and involved
in their davening, and there's almost never enough time to talk, except
during hazarat hashatz (repetition of Amidah).  Normally, the weekday
ba'al tefila does not drag out davening, but even done quickly, the
repetition probably takes 8-10 minutes.  So there "lengthy davening"
isn't the problem, the congregants are.

2.  In shul on Shabbat, the musaf repetition takes me about 7-8 minutes.
 (Note to people from my shul: downstairs.  Hashkama closer to 5.)
Frankly, someone davening fast does it in about 5, and someone really
slow (who's not a real, old-world style cantor) would probably take
about ten.  That difference of 3-5 minutes between a fast davening and a
slow davening -- and I'd guess the difference is between 10 and 15
minutes over the entire length of a Shabbat morning davening -- is also
not what causes davening to be too "drawn out."  But at that, the people
in shul who daven during the week MUST be respectful of the fact that
others who come to shul only on Shabbat may simply not be able to -- or
want to -- daven at weekday speed.  (Personally, I find it difficult to
take the amount of time I should on weekdays.  I appreciate the extra
time to daven with kavvana on Shabbat.)

3.  IMHO, the main causes of this kind of problem are
> starting late (where they do this)
> delays between aliyot during Torah reading (lengthy mi sheberachs, etc.)
> announcements going on too long
I think #2 is a huge offender in a lot of shuls.  And the problem with
#3 is that it happens at a point where decorum is ready to fall apart

4.  One thing that would help is if rabbis would be sensitive to these
issues at drasha (sermon) time.  I don't ch''v want to be seen as
against rabbinical drashas in shul.  But if things in the first half of
davening go slowly, the rabbi should avoid tircha d'tzibbura (stressing
the congregation) by shortening his drasha some.  And if it's a drasha
that he feels requires his full "slot," he should ask the gabbai to pick
quick ba'alei tefila.

5.  That brings me to my last point.  The gabbai must be sensitive to
what's going on, and if things are running late, and if he has any kind
of option, he should pick a fast ba'al musaf.

Now it may be argued that sometimes the ba'al musaf has been
preselected, and I have to admit there's not much to be done there.  But
if the problem is a chiyuv (lit. obligation, here someone who claims
priority to lead davening based on law or custom), it's important to
keep in mind that the congregation also has the right to _choose_ its
shaliach tzibbur (prayer leader, lit.  "messenger of the congregation").
That right of the congregation is probably stronger during musaf of
Shabbat and Yom Tov than at any other time (other than Yamim Nora'im).
Perhaps someone can help with a source on the congregation's rights
vs. people's priorities and obligations.  In any case, I appreciate how
sensitive this point can be in different shuls, including mine.

Ultimately, though, I think the reason there's so much talking in shul
on Yamim Nora'im, in O, C and R shuls alike, is exactly for the reason
that Mr.  Goldstein and his rav has stated, namely, that the davening is
extremely long, and on top of that, unfamiliar.  My only answer to that
is that we must remember Who is sitting on the Throne watching us, at
that very time, to judge us for the year.

K'tivah va'hatima tova,


From: Ezra L Tepper <RRTEPPER@...>
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 95 06:17:11 +0200
Subject: Speed of Prayers

Joe Goldstein writes (v21#32) regarding speed davening:
>   Is this respectful to devening? My question often is, do you speak
>extra slowly when you speak to someone important? OR on a job intervieW?
>Davening is supposed to resemble speaking to a king! True, one may ask
>does one speak very quickly in front of a king? And the answer/excuse
>may be, YES! When one gets excited some people tend to talk quicker than
>other times.  And people may get excited during davening.

The point Joe makes regarding davening being the equivalent of speaking
to a king is well taken. However, his "answer/excuse" for fast davening
that when excited "people tend to talk quicker than other times,"
appears to be problematic. During prayer the call is to fear and
humility, under such conditions excitement does not appear to be the
normal course of action (though I have seen people screaming every word
slowly out loud during the preparatory prayers -- but not during the

I am able to pray with a normal-speed weekly minyan by starting the
blessings before Shma, when the Chazan reaches Ashrei. If I am luckly, I
get to the Amidah together with the rest of the minyan, which is the
essence of public prayer.

Despite all the discussions, the bottom line is to say prayers at the
synagogue, since when a whole congregation prays, the efforts of each
participant strengthens the prayers of all the rest.

Ezra L. Tepper <rrtepper@...>


End of Volume 21 Issue 44