Volume 21 Number 48
                       Produced: Sun Sep 10 23:59:43 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Akayda [Re: mj Vol. 21 #45 Digest]
         [Andrew Marc Greene]
Chess Clocks on Shabbos
         [Zev Kaufman]
Correct term: Yasher Koach  OR  Yishar Kochacha
         [Barry Siegel]
Leah the Matriarch
         [Shlomo Grafstein]
Oyster Calcium Pills
         [Larry Marks]
Speed Davening (2)
         [Joe Goldstein, Mechael Kanovsky]
Speed Davening:  Words per Second.
         [Bobby Fogel]
The Limits of Rebuke
         [David Charlap]
Wedding Minhagim, Mechitza & Timing
         [Debra Fran Baker]
Yomim Noraim shul talking
         [Jan David Meisler]


From: Andrew Marc Greene <amgreene@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:34:03 -0400
Subject: Akayda [Re: mj Vol. 21 #45 Digest]

In m-j 21:45, Yeshaya Halevi brings an interesting interpretation of the
Akeidah, to which I would like to suggest an addendum.

"Complete teshuvah" is achieved when an individual has an opportunity to
repeat his or her sin, and refrains from doing so. (Some add that the
motive for refraining should be to perform teshuvah, and not simply that
the individual now recognizes the action as a sin.)

So, if Avraham avinu "tainted himself by doubting" God's promise, then
in addition to the Akeidah serving as a form of the Sotah ritual (as
Yeshaya suggests) it was an opportunity for Avraham to perform complete
teshuvah. Certainly most of us would have doubts about God if we were in
Avraham's position. But we read that Avraham got up early in the morning
and was so eager to fulfull God's command that he saddled his own
donkey! By doing so, he showed his trust in God to be complete, and was
granted the opportunity to convert his earlier doubt into a merit.

And so may we all be granted the opportunity to turn our sins into

L'shannah tova tikateivu,


From: Zev Kaufman <zev@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 00:35:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Chess Clocks on Shabbos

      Can one use a mechanical spring- operated "chess clock" on
Shabbos?  Assume the clock is fully wound before Shabbos and that by
depressing the lever on your side, you stop your clock (ie. your spring
stops unwinding) and start your opponent's clock ( ie. his spring starts



From: Barry Siegel <sieg@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 95 10:26:58 EDT
Subject: Correct term: Yasher Koach  OR  Yishar Kochacha

>From: Ralph Zwier <zwierr@...>
> I always knew in my heart that Yasher Koyach was not the right
> expression, but although I once asked someone long ago, he was unable to
> explain it. I also think that some knowledgeable people say "EYasher
> Koyach" (leaving out the first "Yud", which is quite normative, as in
> "Itzik") which we non-Yiddish speaking people assume means "A Yasher
> Koyach.

A friend pointed out to me that the word is actually pronounced "Yishar".
The word has 2 Yud's in its beginning, but only 1 Yud is apparently
pronounced.  This Phrase "Yishar Kochacha" is also in the last Rashi  
in the Torah, In fact, its the last Rashi words on the Chumash! (easy to find)
There Rashi alludes to the Talmud as stated below:

> The source for saying "Yeyasher Kochacha" comes from the Talmud Shabbat
> 74: side 1 which is discussing when Moshe Rabeinu broke the Luchot
> (Tablets).  Reish Lakesh says there that it was said of Moshe Rabeinu
> "Yeyasher Kochacha on the Luchos which you broke" ie.  Moshe made the
> correct difficult decision.  In other words "more strength to you" on
> your decision.

Please note that I checked the Blue, Linear Chumash/Rashi 
(with punctuation & english) and the word is listed as "Yishar".
I also checked the Steinsalz Talmud and also the word is listed as "Yishar"

Barry Siegel  HR 2B-028 (908)615-2928 windmill!sieg OR <sieg@...>


From: <RABIGRAF@...> (Shlomo Grafstein)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 1995 20:55:41 -0300
Subject: Leah the Matriarch

There is a lot spoken about Rachel.  I have received a request from the
mother of Bat Mitzvah girl whose name is Leah.  Could you tell me
ideas about Leah or source materials (books) which elaborate
the strength of character and beauty of Neshamah of Leah Ee'mai'nu.
Thanking you
Shlomo Grafstein, Halifax, Canada


From: <cmqs@...> (Larry Marks)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 22:33:02 +0000
Subject: Oyster Calcium Pills

my child will not drink milk IN ANY FORM, and refuses chewable calcium
tablets. We found liquid calcium available at a health food store.  It
is made from oyster shells. Can we give this to him under kashruth laws?
if not, are you aware of any other alternative or substitute?

larry marks


From: Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 95 16:56:40 
Subject: Speed Davening

Mr Tepper says " During prayer the call is to fear and humility, under
such conditions excitement does not appear to be the normal course of
action (though I have seen people screaming every word slowly out loud
during the preparatory prayers -- but not during the Amidah)."

  It is interesting that he uses the example of people screaming in
shul, because THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING OF! {ooops sorry about
that :-) } I grew up in Boro Park and davened in the Stoliner Shteibel
very often. The custom in Stolin is to scream (Or shout out the words
of) davening. (When I was growing up they started raising their voices
during Pesukay Dezimrah, The sentences of praise, but not during the
morning brochos and Korbonos. I went by there several years ago and
found that today their voices are raised from Mah Tovu!) Anyway one of
the first Stoliner Rebbes was asked why shout out davening and he said
(in Yiddish) Az es brent shreit min! (If it burns one yells) Meaning one
should daven with a burning devotion and excitement and even the
physical motions that are associated with it. (The swaying, "Shokling",

Kesivah Vechasima Tovah

From: <KANOVSKY@...> (Mechael Kanovsky)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 1995 14:44:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Speed Davening

In regard to speed davening, two stories comes to my mind. The first is
about the "Rogachover" who was a real gaon (genius) on par with the
GR"A, who used to be the first to finish davening shmonah esreh (the
amidah) before anyone else did. The people in the shul felt uneasy that
the rav had to wait for the congregation, so they went up to him and
asked him that before he takes three steps backwards (signifiying that
he finished davening) maybe he could learn something (since he knew shas
by heart that would not be a problem for him) and thus lengthening his
davening. He replied that he already did that too.
  Story #2 is about the first Gerrer rebi. He too davend quickly and he
explained his davening speed by saying that when the train is moving
fast nobody can get on. He meant that when one davens slowly stray
thoughts usualy get in the way of the thoughts on davening, not so when
one davens fast.
	Also about the person who wrote that there are three cases where
we pasken like Beit Shamai. There are actualy many more cases that we go
like Beit Shamai. There is a famous story in the gemarah about "oto
hayom" (that day) when Beit Shamai had a majority and ruled on a whole
bunch of issues. I am not sure of the exact number but it was many more
that three.

mechael kanovsky


From: <bobby@...> (Bobby Fogel)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 16:22:23 +0000
Subject: Speed Davening:  Words per Second.

On the issue of speed davening, I dont see how this can be defended as
one MJ'er Gabbi has tried to do.  Plus, at least one post, In my
opinion, misunderstansd the Speed Davening dilemma.  First, its not, in
my opinion, the problem of the chanzan's speed when he is reciting out
loud.  It is his Silent Davening speed that is the source of most of the
speed davening problems ...  and anoyances.

To impart a story that happened to me in Yeshiva High about 20 years
ago.  The guys in my class were known for speed davening.  One mincha,
the Menahale came in to observe.  At the conclusion he told us that he
actually timed us!  He then calculated for us how many Words/Second we
were saying and if i remember correctly, it was on the order of 10
words/second.  He then requested that one of us show him how this is
done.  Now, perhaps the guy in the old federal express commercials can
do this, but for must of us this is an impossibility.

I maintain, that most of the people who speed daven at this rate are

1) Not actually saying all the words.  If there are those out there who
maintain that this answer is wrong, have someone time a "NORMAL SPEED
DAVENING" and then do the Words/second calculatiion.  Then try to show
someone that indeed X words/second can be audibly said and understtod by

2) The speed daveners are actually saying the davening but mostly as a
Mental Recitation.  If one listens to the mumbling that comes out, it is
not discernable as the actual words.  I can easily c how this becomes a
habit as the davening becomes more familiar and thus more memorized.  I
believe the halacha is that the davening is to be recited in an
undertone but I ASSUME that it still must be discernable if one was
close and listening.  Or at least discernable by yourself if u listen to
yourself daven.

Please understand, I am not criticiszing this second approach just
explaining.  however, I do find it hard to JUSTIFY any form of speed
davening HALACHICALLY.  If one can HALACHICALLY justify this, please do.

Additionally, I also think the approach of not listening to a complaint
on the speed because the person complaining did not get in for the first
words of birchote hashachar, is a simple way of silencing complaints
without having to deal with the problem itself.  If a ball player is
swinging wrong, it doesnt matter if the person who observes this came in
at the beginning of the ball game or at the ninth inning.  Its still
worng.  I do not believe these complaints came from people wanting the
Shatz (chazan) to go extra slow for them because they came late.

By the way, I find that there are "Favorite" speed davening points.  For
instance, speed davening is more prevelant for the extended Tachanun on
Modays and Thursdays.  I never understaood how this can be said as fast
as it is......and I can go pretty fast when I try.  Another place of
speed davening that almost borders on the rediculous is at AMITZ KOACH
during the Musaf on Yome Kippur which leads up and includes the sections
of the Kohane Gadoles (High Priests) work in the temple on Yome Kippur.
This is tough Medieval Hebrew which is hard enough to read for most, let
alone say.  It is most ironic since this point is the actual heart of
the Yome Kippur Musaf.

Try the Words/Second count.  I think you'll find it

Bobby Fogel


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 95 11:46:36 EDT
Subject: The Limits of Rebuke

I've always learned that rebuke is only permitted if it will have a
positive effect.  If it will only serve to make the other person angry,
then it is wrong.

Sam Saal <saal@...> writes:
>What are the limits of this consensus? Can we, for example:
>Condemn using an known "inferior" Kashrut hashgacha?
>How about an admited gay couple living together?
>How about an intermarriage?

In all of these cases, the decision would depend on how well you know
the people involved.  If you think they are likely to listen to you and
change their ways, then you should say something.  But if they are
likely to ignore you or (worse) get angry with you over it, then you
should keep quiet.

If the people involved are strangers, even more so.  In this day and
age, people do not take kindly to rebuke.  It is probably safe to assume
that a stranger will ignore you or get angry if you try to rebuke him.

All that aside, one should NEVER rebuke a person in public, since you
would be causing great embarrasment to the person.

Additionally, in the first two cases, I would give the parties involved
the benefit of the doubt.  For instance, the people using the
questionably kosher product may have done some research and found it
permissible in their circumstance.  (Like Sunshine cookies, where the
"K" is permissible if the product was sold in the New York area, but not

Similarly, the gay couple may not have a sexual relationship.  If they
don't, then they aren't violating any mitzvot, although they give the
appearance of such violations.

Unless you have confirmed otherwise, I would want to give these people
as much benefit-of-doubt as I can.


From: Debra Fran Baker <dfbaker@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wedding Minhagim, Mechitza & Timing

Norman Tuttle asserts that, although he has never been to a wedding with 
mixed dining, he believes that could lead to mixed dancing.  Since our own 
wedding, my husband and I have attended a number of Orthodox weddings, 
ranging from Modern Orthodox to Yeshivish and Lubavitch.  Some had mixed 
dining, some had completely seperate and two had both.  Those two also 
provided a mechitza for the dancing - those men who were eating on the 
women's side and who were uncomfortable with seeing women dance simply 
went to the men's side for the duration.  Even these had no problems 
dining with their wives.

Of the Modern ones with mixed seating and mechitzaless dance floors, not 
once did we see anyone even think of dancing with the opposite sex, 
unless you count choson and kallah clasping napkins while balanced on 
chairs.  (And at our own wedding, but that was during two brief and 
empty moments of planned mixed dancing.  No one, regardless of how 
religious they were, or what religion they were, seemed to want to pair 
off.  We realized our mistake early on, and stuck to the Jewish dancing 
from then on.)  In other words, I have never seen mixed dining lead to 
mixed dancing.  This doesn't mean it couldn't happen - it just hasn't in 
my observation.

As for leaving early during night weddings, I think that might be caused 
by how well the individual guests know the couple.  For weddings of close 
friends, we'll stay past the end; for close relatives we'll stay for the 
sheva brachot; for distant relatives we'll leave around 11:30.  

Debra Baker


From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed,  6 Sep 1995 13:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Yomim Noraim shul talking

Steve White mentioned that the reason there is so much talking in shuls
on the Yomim Noraim is because the davening is so long.  I find that
answer quite interesting.  In my shul, Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur are
probably the times that it is the quietest all year round!  And I
wouldn't say that the davening is shortened at all on these days.



End of Volume 21 Issue 48