Volume 21 Number 51
                       Produced: Thu Sep 14  5:54:06 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Harry Weiss]
Candlelighting in the Sukkah
         [Steve White]
Dina D'malkhuta
         [Steven F. Friedell]
Grammar, Hebrew & Yiddish
         [Carl Sherer]
Looking for Yomim Noraim Machzorim
         [Michael J Broyde]
Married Women not covering Hair & "Dina Demalkhuta Dina"
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Mixed Choir At A Wedding?
         [David Brotsky]
Non-Oyster Calcium
         [<CHIHAL@...>(Yeshaya Halevi)]
Numbers in Census
         [Moishe Kimelman]
speed davening
         [Eliyahu Teitz]
Teqi'at Shofar
         [Edgar Braunschweig]
When Were The Mishnayos Written
         [Louis Rayman]
Yom Limud & Tefila
         [David Hurwitz]


From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 22:11:04 -0800
Subject: Calcium

Larry Marks asks about sources of Calcium for his daughter.  There is
Orange Juice with added Calcium with Hechshers on it.  Another
possibility is to include powdered milk in other foods.  I don't know if
the kosher vitamin companies such as Freeda make a liquid calcium.



From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 21:59:43 -0400
Subject: Candlelighting in the Sukkah

Now that we're within a month of Sukkot, I wanted to throw a question
out concerning Sukkot.  In particular, how strong is the obligation to
light candles in the Sukkah, as opposed to the house, on (a) yom tov, or
(b) Shabbat Hol Hamoed?

The reason I ask is that we're have a drought emergency in the Eastern
US, and most open fires (at campgrounds, picnic areas and the like) are
prohibited for fear of sparking forest fires.  It seems to me that as a
matter of public safety, there would probably be some preference _not_
to light outdoors, if there is still a fire danger warning next month.
On the other hand, if the halachah _requires_ (as opposed, let's say, to
_prefers_), then there is not an option, of course.

One answer is ask my LOR.  I will, but want to be armed on the subject;
and if the list decides that it's not really a problem to light indoors,
then it may be something others would wish to ask their LORs, also.  In
this context:

(a) Women usually have the obligation to light, and they don't have the
obligation of Sukkah.
(b) Might one have to light on yom tov, but then move one's candles in when
finished eating so as not to leave them unattended, especially if it's windy?
(c) Is the halachah on Shabbat (which is not also yom tov) as strict as for
the yom tov, since the obligation is slightly more lenient?

Thanks very much!
Steve White, reminding you that . . . 
Only _you_ can prevent forest fires!


From: <friedell@...> (Steven F. Friedell)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:13:20 -0400
Subject: Dina D'malkhuta

In v. 21:46 Eli Turkel wrote:
>   The opinion of the Ran is
>based on the fact that every Jew has a right to live in Israel and so
>cannot be evicted by a king (which for the Ran is the basis of Dina
>demalchuta).  This obviously cannot mean that a government can't tax for
>roads, an army or any provide other services. This government need not
>be elected and is not based on community rules. What the Ran means is
>that a gentile king in Israel cannot pass legislation which is purely
>for his own benefit. Other government rules are completely legitimate
>even according to Ran. The alternative is chaos.

My understanding of Dina D'malkhuta is that when it applies it limits the
authority of the Bet Din to apply Torah law.  That is, when Dina D'malkhuta
applies, the Bet Din must apply the law of the king, not Torah law.  The
Ran's view is on its a face a denial of any limitation on the application of
Torah law by a Bet Din in the land of Israel.  The Bet Din in Israel must
apply Torah law and nothing else.  But that does not limit the power of the
king in Israel to apply his own law in his own courts.  The Ran's view of
Dina D'malkhuta is consistent with the view he took in his D'rashot
(discussed a couple of months ago) that the Bet Din's role is limited to
applying Torah law except in times of emergency, and that the king's law
(including the law of gentile kings) might be better able to establish
social order.

On another point raised by Eli Turkel:

>  I have a few problems with the opinions of Rishonim on Dina
>Demalchuta and am looking for solutions. Ramban and others claim that
>Dina demalchuta applies only to ancient laws but that a king has no
>right to issue new laws. First, I am not sure what old laws means, last
>year, hundred years old? Second, the old laws were new laws at one time.
>More basically does that mean that America must follow the laws as
>understood in colonial terms, In particular there were no income tax
>laws in those days. The English should follow the Magna Carta? Obviously
>any government has to respond to changed circumstances and change laws
>including tax laws.

My understanding is that the Rishonim were reflecting the political theory
of their day that regarded law as valid only if it was the customary law of
the land, not some new-fangled creation. 


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 8:38:31 IDT
Subject: Grammar, Hebrew & Yiddish

Gilad J. Gevaryahu writes:

> The Sepharadim say to a peson who just got an "aliyah" [la'Torah]: [ata
> tihiye?] "chazak u'baruch" and the reply is "chazak ve'ematz" and I also
> heard the reply "yevarechecha hashem".

In my father-in-law's Persian shul in Skokie, Illinois, the oleh comes up
to the Torah and says "Hashem emachem" to which the shul answers 
yevarechecha Hashem".  Then the oleh continues with the Bracha.  At
the conclusion of the aliya (and also when a shliach tzibur leaves the
amud), the oleh or shliach tzibur says "kulchem bruchim tihyoo" to 
which the tzibur responds "chazak u'varuch tihyeh". 

-- Carl Sherer 
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 16:24:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for Yomim Noraim Machzorim

The Young Israel of Toco Hills, Atlanta is looking for between 50 and 100 
Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur Machzorim.  They can be used, and of any 
variety.  The Young Israel would be willing to purchase them if needed 
(although a donation of unused machzorim would be welcomed.)
Rabbi Michael Broyde
Young Israel of Toco Hill, Atlanta
2074 Lavista Road
Atlanta, Ga 30324 


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:29:00 +0000
Subject: Married Women not covering Hair & "Dina Demalkhuta Dina"

A few weeks ago, Rabbi Broyde wrote:
>       My examination of the teshuvot literature (incomplete that it
>is) suggests to me that (and I say this somewhat tongue in check) that
>there are more poskim who have published teshuvot asserting that halacha
>does not require married women to cover their hair than there are
>published teshuvot ruling that dina demalchuta does not apply in the
>land of Israel.

In a private post, I asked him who these posqim were and on what basis they
published such teshovoth [responsa].

He sent me a list of sources:
Rav Yehoshua Baba, Sefer Yehoshua 89; Rav Shalom Masas, Mayim Chaim 2:110
and Otzar Michtavim 1884, Rav Moshe Malka Mikva Mayim 6:33 (maybe wrong
citation); Shevut Yakov 1:103 and many others (I could produce five or
six more).  It can be implied also from Shut Mosh
ibn chabib EH 1, Chiddushai Maradam on Rambam Sefer Hamitzvot Aseh 175

I did not check all these sources, but did discuss the issue with Rabbi
Rubanowitz (Har Nof).  He first said that none of these sources said
what Rabbi Broyde claimed.  He also said that to say such a thing would
be contrary to the Shulhan `Arukh.  We then proceeded to look it up in
the Shulhan `Arukh (Even Ha`ezer 21), including a reference by the Be'er
Hetev to the Shevut Yaakov that Rabbi Broyde quoted.

Technically, Rabbi Broyde is correct, but very misleading: Yes, a
married woman may go in public with uncovered hair -- if she is a
virgin!  This leniency (and it is only a leniency, since the strictest
opinion brought in Shulkhan `Arukh requires even unmarried virgins to
cover their hair [perhaps this is from where the Yemenite custom is
derived]) is apparently applied at weddings where the bride does not
cover her hair during the seudath mizwah [wedding celebration meal] (in
Israel, the [Ashkenazic] custom seems to be for her to cover it after
coming out of yihud [the room in which the bride and groom are left
alone after the huppah [canopy]).

As far as the issue of "dina demalkhuta dina" [applying the law of the
land] not being applicable in Israel, Rabbi Broyde attempts to assert
that very few posqim would say that it doesn't apply.  However,
according to Rabbi Rubanowitz, although there are those who agree with
Rabbi Broyde, there are many more who disagree (and say that it does not
apply in Israel).

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: <DaveTrek@...> (David Brotsky)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 12:11:22 -0400
Subject: Mixed Choir At A Wedding?

A friend of mine is getting married in the next few months and wishes to
have a mixed religious choir perform at the wedding, either during the
chupah or at the dinner afterwards. The couple asked a Rav and were told
that while he had no halachik problems with such an arrangement, he
feels that it would make some people attending the wedding
uncomfortable. My question for the list is whether there are any serious
halachik issues which would preclude such a choir from performing
religious songs? Is it just that this is "not done" or are there
prohibitions against having a mixed choir in the first place, at any
time or place? The choir in question has been sanctioned by several
rabbanim and has multiple groups of women and men singing each of the
harmonies. All of the songs sung are religious songs, as well. The songs
involved contain four part harmonies, which is why the solution of only
having the men sing is not feasible.

David Brotsky
Shana Tovah To All


From: <CHIHAL@...>(Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:28:18 -0400
Subject: Non-Oyster Calcium

<cmqs@...> (Larry Marks) asks for an alternative to milk or
chewable calcium tablets.  Two thoughts:
        1.  Liquify the calcium tablets in a blender after pouring in
the recalcitrant child's favorite non-carbonated beverage.  Hint:
chocolate syrup covers a multitude of evil tastes.
         2.  Certain antacids, such as Tums, come in a variety of
flavors and are loaded with calcium.  Consult your doctor as to side


From: <kimel@...> (Moishe Kimelman)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 22:37:07 +1000
Subject: Numbers in Census

In a recent mj someone asked about the numbers in the census of Bnai Yisrael
always ending in a zero.  I remember seeing a Rosh somewhere that states
that these numbers were rounded off, but I haven't been able to find it for
some years now.  (The truth is that I am not even 100% sure that it is a
Rosh - that's how bad my memory is at the moment.)  Is there anybody out
there who knows of this Rosh, or can think of some way to find it?



From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:55:55 -0400
Subject: Re: speed davening

I heard the story quoted recently about the Rogatchover and how quickly
he davened as having happened to R. Chayim Brisker, and not the



From: Edgar Braunschweig <bradi@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 21:48:47 -0100
Subject: Teqi'at Shofar

The following question came up in our elul-shiur:

Why can't you have a shofar quartet on rosh hashanah?

We all know it is not done, but why?

Does anybody have an idea where to find an answer to this question or 
does anybody know of a synagogue where they have a shofar orchestra? 


From: <lou@...> (Louis Rayman)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:58:04 -0400
Subject: When Were The Mishnayos Written

In regards to Rashi's opinion that the mishnayos were not written down 
until a few generations after R. Yehuda Hanasi, an interesting inference 
can be made in a story in Baba Metzia, perek Hasocher es Hapoalim (the 
exact page escapes me).

The Gemara relates the method that R. Chiyya used to teach young students. 
He would pick 5 students, write for each of them a single chumash 
(Bereishis for one, Shemos for the next, etc), and teach each of them that 
particular chumash.  He would do the same with mishna, teaching 6 others 
one book each of the mishna.  The students would then teach each other 
what they had learnt.

The geamra says explictly that R. Chiyya wrote down the 5 chumashim (it 
points out the he even bought sheep, made parchment and ink, etc).  But it 
does not say that he wrote down the mishna.  But it seems that the mishna 
had already been organized into the 6 sidros that we have today.  

Of course, the story does not prove anything, but it adds one more piece to 
the puzzle of who did what when (and why).

Ktiva V'Chasima Tova

Lou Rayman - Hired Gun                                   _ |_ 
Client Site: <lou@...>    212/603-3375         .|   |
Main Office: <louis.rayman@...>                  |  / 


From: <DAVIDHDOC@...> (David Hurwitz)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:10:32 -0400
Subject: Yom Limud & Tefila

For the last few months many of the subjects on this list have focused
on the current situation in Israel with all of their ramifications. As
the Yomim Noraim approach many of my colleagues and I were asking
ourselves what can we do to help attain real peace in Israel. An idea
was floated of a world-wide day of extra learning and Prayer during the
Aseret y'mei Teshuvah. Possible dates include Wednesday, Sept. 27, 3
Tishrei, (Tzom Gedalia) and/or Sunday, October 1, 7 Tishrei.It is to be
emphasized that this is not a political forum.

Every Rabbi should arrange a particular time and program for his
individual shul or have the community organize a larger gathering.I have
discussed this idea with a number of Rabbis in the metropolitan NY area
and have recived enthusiastic responses. I urge all of you M-J'ers out
there to take the initiative and help organize such a program in your
own individual communities. The Orthodox Union, Young Israel, and the
Agudah have been approached for their input and assistance.

May we be zocheh through our Achdut (unity) to bring a year of true peace and
the ultimate Geulah.
                                              Ktiva v'chatimah tova
                                              David Hurwitz


End of Volume 21 Issue 51