Volume 21 Number 56
                       Produced: Thu Sep 28 23:25:17 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bar Mitzva Custom
         [Joe Goldstein]
Bnei Noach
         [Michael J Broyde]
DMV and hair coverings.
         [Herschel Ainspan]
Eruv - payment to a utility company
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Fish and Milk
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
         [Eric Jaron Stieglitz]
Jewish Trivia
Luminous watches
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Name Origin Inquiry
         [Mechy Frankel]
Nidda Cycle Monitor Banned.
Second day Rosh Hashanah
         [Jack Stroh]
Sefaradic Pronunciation of Adonay
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Teaching at Christian Universities
         [Etan Diamond]
Utah & polygamy
         [Shalom Carmy]
Zmanim Program
         [Warren Burstein]


From: Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 13:36:07 
Subject: Bar Mitzva Custom

Mr. Robinson questions the propiety of giving a gift to a person a gift
on Shabbos.  It is true that one can not acquire a gift on Shabbos.  The
way around this problem, and this is what we do in our shul, is to have
someone acquire it before shabbos FOR the recepient.  ("Zochin Leodom
shelo befonov" One may do another a favor even not in his presence) That
way there is no problem.

Wishing everyone a Gmar Chasima Tova.


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:37:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bnei Noach

> > I don't have the book, but I once read a book by Rabbi Aharon
> > Lichtenstein on the subject of Bnei Noach which cited a source saying
> > that the court has the option to sentence a violator to death, but may
> > impose a lesser penalty if it sees fit.

To the best of my knowledge, this is not found in Rabbi Lichenstein's 
fine work; it is however discussed at great legnth by Rabbi Bleich in his 
fine article on this topic in Sefer Hayovel Lerav Soloveitchik at 1:319.


From: <ainspan@...> (Herschel Ainspan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:15:27 -0400
Subject: DMV and hair coverings.

	Just a couple weeks ago, my wife wore her snood for her
driver's license picture in White Plains, NY.  No note from a rabbi
needed; the DMV clerk didn't even ask her to take it off.


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:46:51 -0400
Subject: Eruv - payment to a utility company

In MJ21#55 Nadine  Bonner  asks:
> Here in Milwaukee, we are in the final stages of erecting an eruv. The
>biggest obstacle has been the demand of Wisconsin Electric for $10,000
>to allow us to use their electric poles.
> I know that in Philadelphia and other cities, electric poles are
>used. Does anyone know in those electric companies also charge for the
>use of the poles?  I believe that the $10,000 comes to something like
>$100 per pole (I'm not sure, but I know that the final figure was a per
>pole computation). Do other cities also pay the electric companies on
>this basis?

Lower Merion Synagogue (a suburb of Philadelphia) built an eruv several
years ago. It used electric poles of PECO Energy, telephone poles of
Bell Atlantic and the railroad lines. It did NOT pay the utilities
companies anything. The eruv corporation obtain written permission from
the above companies, and had to purchase liability insurance to protect
them. Influential people of the community made the contacts and they
were happy to help as a public service to the community. For more
details I will supply the names of the people who actually did the legal
work (a lawyer, the president of the congregation at the time, and
others) who could give a more specific details.

These days utilities companies are charging the TV cable industry for
the commercial use of their poles, so they figure why not charge for an
eruv also. The difference between a commercial use of a TV cable and the
religious use of an eruv must be explained.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:53:15 GMT
Subject: Fish and Milk

I noticed today that a new product in Israel, tuna fish in yoghurt,
carries a rabbinic endorsement, with the following comment (translated),
"Dairy - for those who eat fish with milk."

As I was unfamiliar with the proviso, I checked with my brother-in-law.
Yoreh Deah 82?) He tells me that the Bet Yosef forbids this, as being
dangerous to the health. It is a rule observed only by Sepharadim.

And here I thought that only the Ashkenazim had stringencies, such as
not eating Kitniyot ("legumes") on Pesach ...

           Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem 97280, Israel
    Phone: 972-2-864712: Fax: 972-2-862041
   EMail address: <himelstein@...>


From: Eric Jaron Stieglitz <ephraim@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 22:03:36 -0400
Subject: Funerals

  My father attended a funeral recently, and noticed that the first
shovel of soil was thrown with the back of the shovel and the rest were
thrown with the front of the shovel. He asked me the reason for this
custom and I didn't know. Does anybody know the reason for this custom?

  (I'll forward any responses on mail-jewish to my father, but anybody
wishing to reply directly to him should write to

Eric Jaron Stieglitz    <ephraim@...>
Home: (212) 853-6795/4837       Assistant Systems Manager at the
Work: (212) 854-6020            Center for Telecommunications Research
Fax : (212) 854-2497    http://www.ctr.columbia.edu/people/Eric.html


From: Reuven <moshiachnow@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:43:12 +0200
Subject: Jewish Trivia

Hi. I would like some information to be used at religious childrens 
camps. What I am looking for is interesting combinations of words or 
p'sukim etc. For example....

Where in davenning do we have 14 words all in a row that start with a vav?
ANS: After Shma in Vyatziv, Vnachon, Vkayam etc etc.

Ques: Where in davening do we say a posuk, and then reverse the posuk?
ANS: Gad Gedud Yegudenu Vehu Yagud Akev, Akev Yagud Vehu etc.  This comes 
from Kriyat Shma al hamita (some minhagim)

Please could you give me some more (e.g. where in chumash do we have a 
posuk where every word starts with a certain letter etc.) Preferrably I 
need stuff from davening, but anything will do.

Please send replies to me personally as well as the list(if you wish). My 
address is <moshiachnow@...>

thanks a lot.



From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 05:43:20 GMT
Subject: Luminous watches

I'm really not looking for any new prohibitions, but wonder if anyone 
knows of any Halachic discussion as to whether, on Shabbat or Yom Tov, 
one can hold up a luminous clock/watch to the light to "charge" the 
hands and dial.

           Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem 97280, Israel
    Phone: 972-2-864712: Fax: 972-2-862041
   EMail address: <himelstein@...>


From: Mechy Frankel <FRANKEL@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:11:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Name Origin Inquiry

A member of my shul asked me if I could post a request for information
concerning the origin of the family name Charlop. My own uninformed
guess was that it might have started as a roshei tayvos or some more
generalized notirikon, but don't really have a clue.  Either public or
private post to me would do the job.  Thanks in advance.

Mechy Frankel                             W: (703) 325-1277
<frankel@...>                       H: (301) 593-3949


From: <Michael_Lipkin@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 13:28:47 EST
Subject: Nidda Cycle Monitor Banned.

There was recently an AP article in my local paper with the headline,
"Menstrual-cycle monitor banned".  The article stated that several
Rabbis in Bnei Brak have banned the use of these hand held purity
computers for fear that people would use them instead of consulting a
Rav.  The article even quoted a letter from Rav Eliashiv in Yated Neeman
allegedly warning against the use of these devices.

I've never seen the hand held version, but a friend of mine wrote PC
software called Vestos which, similarly (I think), calculates the days
of abstention.

I do not understand the basis for the ban.  If the article is correct,
then these Rabbayim fear that people will stop asking Nidah questions.
However, these programs merely perform calculations that people usually
do themselves anyway.  I could understand the concern if someone
invented a device that included a mass spectrometer, but unless I'm
mistaken I don't believe these hand held devices can Poskin Shailas
(decide halachik questions).

Maybe the fear is that people will forget how to do the calculations,
but that was not clear from the article.  Does anyone have more


BTW: If anyone is interested in more information about the Vestos
program please e-mail me directly. (There's nothing in it for me!  All
profits go to charity.)


From: <jackst@...> (Jack Stroh)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 23:35:08 -0400
Subject: Second day Rosh Hashanah

I have been wondering when the second day of Rosh hashanah started. I know
that it was a takanat neviim (ruling of the prophets), but what was done
before this ruling? Since the New Moon was declared by The High Court after
witnesses arrived and they could have arrived late in the day, it was
possible that the people of yerushalayim would not know it was Rosh
Hashanah until late afternoon. Of course, if you lived outside of the area,
you wouldn't know for days when Rosh Hashanah was.


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:37:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sefaradic Pronunciation of Adonay

On Thu, 07 Sep 1995, Isaac Balbin wrote:
>  From the liturgical point of view, the Israeli pronunciation of Hebrew
> (mistakenly called "havarah sefaradit"--though Sefardim call it the
> "havarah Ashkenazit") is the worst possible and should be avoided. It
> contains the "mistakes" of the Ashkenazic tradition and the Sefardic
> tradition, being the lowest common denominator. For example, it makes no
> distinction between kometz and patax, so that the sacred Name `ado-noy
> is pronounced as though it were the profane `adonay "lords", which is
> why is also why both Rav Kook z"l and the Hazon Ish z"l insisted on the
> use of the Ashkenazic pronunciation in davening--for Ashkenazim. (This
> is a far greater error than stressing the "wrong" syllable, since
> incorrect stress only rarely produces an actual change of meaning.)

	Actually, the Chazon Ish held that even S'faradim should 
pronounce the "komatz" beneath the "nun" of Adonoy, the way the 
Ashkenazim do.  He based himself on a Rabbeinu B'chaye who writes that 
there is a fundamental difference between a "komatz" and a "pasach".  
This was written up in the Yated Ne'eman (an issue within the last year) 
and was argued about between the Rabbonim in Yerusholayim and B'nei 

G'mar Chasimo Toivo
			Mordechai Perlman


From: Etan Diamond <aa725@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:03:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Teaching at Christian Universities

	Are there any observant Jews out there who are teaching (or have
taught) at Christian universities?  What is it like?  Have you
encountered many problems with your observances? Antagonism? Missionary
pressure?  Does it matter what discipline (i.e., sciences--where there
is no religious content--versus humanities--where there could be
religious content)?

	I am not asking about the halakhic validity or prohibition but I
am just wondering about the sociological experience of an observant Jew
teaching in a Christian setting.

	Thanks in advance.

Etan Diamond
Department of History
Carnegie Mellon University


From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:11:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Utah & polygamy

To the best of my recollection, Utah was compelled to abandon polygamy by 
the Federal Government. Utah was not allowed to join the Union as a state 
until it adopted a state constitution that outlawed polygamy.

I don't recall what role was played by the Supreme Court in all this.


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 10:02:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Zmanim Program

Akiva Miller writes:
>If anyone wants to write their own zmanim program, I suggest the
>following as a starting point: Sky & Telescope Magazine, August 94, page
>84, published a program written in a generic Basic, which accurately
>calculates sunrise and sunset anywhere on earth, for any day of any
>year. (A followup article appeared on page 84 of the March 95 issue.)

Wouldn't it be necessary to modify the program for halachic sunrise
and sunset times?  If I've got this right (and if I'm not, someone
please correct me) halacha uses the time that the uppermost edge of
the sun crosses the horizon, while astronomers use the center of the

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


End of Volume 21 Issue 56