Volume 21 Number 71
                       Produced: Tue Oct 31  0:11:26 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Aliyos on Yamim Noraim
         [Carl Sherer]
Aliyot on Rosh Hashanah
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
         [Eliyahu Teitz]
Following a Psak
         [David Riceman]
Psak of Rav Soloveitchik
         [Isaac Balbin]
Rav Soloveitchik and Kraft Cheese
         [Avi Feldblum]
Thanksgiving (2)
         [Janice Gelb, Shoshana Sloman]
Thanksgiving in Israel
         [Zvi Weiss]
The Chief Rabbi
         [Steve Gindi]
The Rav and Rav Moshe at a wedding
         [Dave Curwin]
Women and Zimun
         [Steve White]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 23:53:36 -0500
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

It has been quiet on mail-jewish and it's associated lists for the past
week or two. I was on a business trip and could not get easy access to
email (as well as putting in 12-13 hour days at the plant), and then
after coming back, this past weekend has been a bit stressful with some
recent deaths of parents of shul members. I do expect to be in New
Jersey for at least the next 7 days or so, and I will be working hard on
getting some of the backlog of email dealt with. So expect a fair amount
of mail coming over the list, as well I will try and contact many of you
via private email on messages that may be aging in my mailbox. It hit a
high of about 1500/1600 messages last week, I think I will get it back
down to 1200 or less before I go to sleep tonight.

A quick request, I will probably have to spend the Shabbat of Nov 17/18
in the Detroit area. Anyone on the list know of someone I might be able
to contact re Shabbat info, hospitality, hotel in walking distance of
shul etc. Thanks in advance.



From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 23:27:01 IDT
Subject: Aliyos on Yamim Noraim

Liz Muschel asks:

> A question has arisen in our shule as to whether it is halachically
> appropriate to call a young unmarried boy to the Torah on Rosh Hashonah
> or Yom Kippur. Some people feel that this great honor should be reserved
> for the elder men of the kehilah, (or at least married men), and others
> feel that any male over bar mitzvah has the right to receive an
> aliya. Is this indeed a halachic issue, or a minhag?

As far as I am aware it is a minhag.  There seem to be two customs among
shuls - one is to call the "elders" of the shul to the Torah on Rosh
Hashana and Yom Kippur.  The other, which I have found is quite common
in Israel is to auction off the aliyos in which case the auction is open
to all.  If the aliyos are sold, the Mishna Brura states in OH 584, SK 8
that one should try if at all possible to purchase an aliya on the Yamim
Noraim.  Presumably that would include younger unmarried people as well.

What *is* brought down in Halacha as requiring that one be married is to
be the shliach tzibur (the leader) on yamim noraim.  The Rama in OH
581:1 states that the shliach tzibur should be the most fit and the
greatest in Torah and good deeds and that he should be over the age of
thirty and married.  He then hastens to add that the most important
point is that he be acceptable to the congregation.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 16:33:35 GMT
Subject: Aliyot on Rosh Hashanah

 In a recent posting, Liz Muschel asked about giving Aliyot to young
unmarried boys on the High Holydays.  While I have not found any
reference to this either way, I did uncover a few interesting
 a) Ramo on Orach Chaim (584:2) states that the Baal Tekiah should be
given an Aliyah.
 b) The Mishnah Brurah (gloss 9 there) adds that there are places that
the person who acts as Chazan for Musaf is also given an Aliyah (no
mention, incidentally, about the person who acts as Chazan for
 c) The Mishnah Brurah, though, adds a very interesting stipulation:
"Those who are *paid* for blowing the Shofar or acting as Chazan - it is
not the custom ("ain nohagim") to call them up."
 d) There are stipulations about the *Chazanim* on the High Holydays, as
outlined in Ramo on Orach Chaim (581:2), that ideally the person/s
chosen should be the most suitable in terms of Torah learning and piety,
"and should be thirty years old and should also be married," although
"every Jew is suitable as long as he is acceptable to the congregation."
The latter provision leads to Ramo's statement that if a person is not
acceptable to the congregation but forces his way to the Amud by virtue
of a Chazakah (i.e., that he claims this by right rather than by the
people's desire), "one does not answer Amen after him."

           Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem 97280, Israel
    Phone: 972-2-864712: Fax: 972-2-862041
   EMail address: <himelstein@...>


From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:26:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Cheese

A recent poster wrote the following concerning Rav Soloveitchik's psak
concerning cheese:

> I think that it is generally accepted in most comminuties not to use
> electricity on YomTov and also not to eat nonkosher cheeses.

Rav Soloveitchik also firmly believed that one should not eat non-kosher
cheese.  He just felt that certain cheeses that others considered not
kosher were in fact kosher.



From: <dr@...> (David Riceman)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 09:14:18 EDT
Subject: Following a Psak

I was puzzled by Eli Turkel's recent submission.  He quoted Rabbi
Schachter as saying that someone may accept one of Rabbi Soloveitchik's
controversial decisions (e.g. cheese) only if
(i) he received it as a personal psak
or (ii) he follows all of Rabbi Soloveitchik's decisions.
 Mr. Turkel seemed to think that we should follow this decision of Rabbi

David Riceman


From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:01:19 +1000
Subject: Re: Psak of Rav Soloveitchik

  | From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
  |    I have heard from Rav Schacter and others that one can rely on these
  | leniencies only if one accepts all the psaks of Rav Soloveitchik
  | including his stringecies (eg he kept shabbat for 72 minutes like
  | Rabbenu Tam, he strongly objected to attending operas etc.) or else if
  | one received a personal psak from the Rav.

 If there was no formal psak, but rather an opinion, and if YOU did not
see that opinion in action (eg. you didn't see the Rav turn on
electricity in your presence) then I believe that you need to ask a
Sheila whether you may act on the opinion of the Rav. The fact is that
there is a category of Halocho Vein Morin Kein (theoretical halocho).
Unless Rav Soloveitchik was Moireh this to you as a Psak Din, I do not
believe that you can just do it.
 It isn't just an issue of Rav Soloveitchik, of course. Rav Moshe
apparently felt that Gram Kibui (indirect extinguishing of a flame) on
Yom Tov was muttar and apparently would turn off certain gas stoves on
yom tov on this basis. His family could act that way if he allowed them
to see the Hanhogo. Rav Tendler told me that he saw this himself.
 If a Rav allowed them to see it then he is "Moireh" the Psak to
them. Similarly, he may choose to allow Talmidim Muvhokim to see
it. They too could then choose to use the Psak (of course a Talmid
Muvhak in this category would be doing everything they observed and
hence the explanation of Rav Shechter, in my view).
 In your case, I don't think your Chevrusa asking the Rav's opinion that
something is persimissible constitutes Moirin Ken. It could be his view
of Halocho though (and *he* may act this way).  I think you have to
receive it (or it has to be Befarhesya) as Halocho Lemaaseh==Halocho
Vemoirin Ken for you to do it unless there are other Poskim (on such
controversial issues) who hold this way.

Dr Isaac Balbin, Dept. of Comp. Sci., RMIT University, Melbourne, Australia
<isaac@...>    +61 3 9660 2803       http://www.cs.rmit.edu.au/~isaac


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:02:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Rav Soloveitchik and Kraft Cheese

Howard Siegel writes:
> I want to add a datapoint to the "Kraft" cheese issue.
> Many years ago, I had heard that the Rav was matir eating Kraft cheese,
> and I took the opportunity after one of his Motzoei Shabbos shiurim to
> ask him about the issue.
> I had barely started asking the question, and the Rav interrupted me and
> said, "Yes, yes, I know what you heard, but if it doesn't have a
> hechsher on it it isn't kosher."  This is as close to an exact quotation
> as I can manage after so many years.

Just a comment on a datapoint. I once discussed this matter with
R. Chaim (the Rav's son). My memory of the conversation is that he told
me that his father had received so much heat on that issue, that he
avoided getting engaged in it in public. Thus I would hesitate to say
based on what you describe above that we have any real information about
the Rav's personal opinion on the subject.



From: <janiceg@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:48:02 -0700
Subject: Thanksgiving

In Vol. 21 #68, Dani Wassner says:
> I have not read the article about Thanksgiving mentioned but I I do have
> a slightly different perspective.
> Coming from Australia, I was always amazed at frum people in Israel
> (ex-Americans) who observed Thanksgiving. I don't know the origins of
> the festival, but in Australia at least, no "goyishe customs" like
> Thankgiving are observed by Jews. After all, just because Christmas has
> no religious significance to most Christians today, we don't put
> Christmas trees in Australia (at least not in Australia).

I am vehemently opposed to Christmas being celebrated by Jews, but do
not think that Thanksgiving falls into this category at all. I don't
identify with it or really celebrate it personally (except by watching
football on television :-> ). However, I never saw anything wrong with
it being celebrated by Jews, as it is a holiday related to the founding
of the United States. I know of no church services specifically geared
to Thanksgiving as any kind of Christian holiday nor of any Christian-
related observances associated with it.

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address. 

From: <ssloman@...> (Shoshana Sloman)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 01:28 EST
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving

>From: Dani Wassner <dwassner@...>
>I have not read the article about Thanksgiving mentioned but I I do have
>a slightly different perspective.
>Coming from Australia, I was always amazed at frum people in Israel
>(ex-Americans) who observed Thanksgiving. I don't know the origins of
>the festival, but in Australia at least, no "goyishe customs" like
>Thankgiving are observed by Jews. After all, just because Christmas has
>no religious significance to most Christians today, we don't put
>Christmas trees in Australia (at least not in Australia).

My rabbi has said that if someone (like his mother) is serving turkey,
he'll partake, but otherwise he wouldn't go out of his way to observe
Thanksgiving.  He associates it with Xtian worship, since the Pilgrims,
were, in fact, Xtians.  Others feel that we are ALL thanking G-d (for
our country) during Thanksgiving, and there is nothing particularly
Xtian about it.

Just yesterday, a woman told us that as she was raising her kids, she
didn't want to have to go to all the trouble of making a big dinner,
since she already had to do that for Shabbos.  So, she would just serve
the traditional Thanksgiving dinner (turkey, cranberry sauce, etc.) on
the Shabbos before, having Thanksgiving itself as a day off.  Now, she
says, after all these years, her son has told her that he always felt
DEPRIVED growing up, because they didn't have a Thanksgiving meal ON
Thanksgiving Day!

Shoshana Amelite Sloman


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:10:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thanksgiving in Israel

The poster who (from "down under", I believe) who was so critical about
the celebration of Thanksgiving in Israel (by American Olim) appears to
fail to consider that it is done as a way of "bonding" those
ex-Americans with something familiar from their past...  Also, the
comparison to other Xtian holidays is inappropriate in terms of several
of the opinions cited in the article that discuss this matter -- if
Poskim did not feel that this holiday was to be classified as a
"religious-based" holiday, then it does not seem proper for one
unfamiliar with the context to have such a harsh attitude..



From: Steve Gindi <steve@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 22:33:36 GMT
Subject: The Chief Rabbi

It has been reported on Israeli radio that the Chief Rabbi Rabbi Bakshi
Doron, who should be health live and live long, has agreed to try to
change the rabbinic courts negative attitude towards battered wives. A
composium will be organized for the month of Shevat. He additionally
will be doing high profile lectures in many synagogues around the
country to awaken the religious community to the plight of such women
who are beaten at home and not believed in the Beit Din.

This is the second time Rabbi Bakshi Doron has come to the Defense of
women. A month or two ago it was announced that Men who do not give
their wife a Get will need to agree that the entire home be given over
to the women. This is a great solution because the men usually refuse to
give a Get unless the women give them money. This makes their attempt

Steve Gindi                             NetMedia (Home of Jerusalem One)
Tech Support                          ------------------------------------- 
<Steve@...>                  "Information at the Speed of Thought"
           Phone:  972-2-795-860          Fax:  972-2-793-524


From: Dave Curwin <6524dcurw@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 22:55:39 EST
Subject: The Rav and Rav Moshe at a wedding

>From the Mail-Jewish archives:
>On May 20 [1993] there was a Yom Iyun held at Heichal Shlomo in Jerusalem
>organized by the RCA.  
I was at this Yom Iyun, which was held in memory of Rav Soloveitchik.
One of the speakers spoke about a particular wedding at which both
the Rav and Rav Moshe Feinstein were present. The story is not
included in the summary of the Yom Iyun. Does anyone recall the story
given, who gave it, and even whose wedding it might have been?


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 17:30:27 -0400
Subject: Women and Zimun

In #63 Shmuel Himselstein writes:
>[parts deleted] That Mishnah (which is not the
>normative Halachah) describes different texts for 3 together, 10
>together (a differentiation which we do make), but also 100 together,
>1,000 together, and 10,000 together - and in that case, indeed, the
>number refers to the number of adult males (although, logically, the
>"zimun" would apply equally to adult females reciting the Grace after
>Meals together).

My understanding is that our addition of "Elokenu" when a minyan
bentshes together requires a minyan -- ten adult men -- and that a large
group of women making a zimun does not add "Elokenu."  I can stand a
source on that, or correction if I am mistaken.

Steve White


End of Volume 21 Issue 71