Volume 21 Number 80
                       Produced: Thu Nov  2 18:48:14 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Hachnasat Orchim in the US
         [Waldo Horowitz]
Kids in Yishivot and Hosting Problems
         [Marsha Wasserman]
Kriah for Shemini Atzeret
         [Steve White]
Lashon Hara
         [Steve Gindi]
Lashon HaRa'
         [Aharon Manne]
Mazal Tov
         [Steve White]
Origin of Hatikva melody
         [Mara Moshe]
Talmudic Sources for Black Clothing
         [Edwin Frankel]
Tunes (2)
         [David Charlap, Alana]
Women's tefila group
         [Etan Diamond]
Yeshivish "Rap" music
         [Aryeh Frimer]


From: Waldo Horowitz <waldoh@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:34:56 -0500
Subject: Hachnasat Orchim in the US

Following up the interesting discussion of hosting yeshiva and seminary
students in Israel, I'd like to know what people think about hachnasat
orchim in the US(especially in the New York area).  This would be
primarily hosting singles and baalei tshuva for shabbat and yomtov.

1. Is it correct to say that the imposition is one of time and attention
rather than cost?  this being since shabbat is the time when families
spend time together and catch up on much-needed rest.

2. Do hosts think that their guests are appreciative?  Should they be
offering to help out w/ the dishes after shabbat etc.?

3. Do people think that BTs and singles should spend shabbat among
themselves more?


From: <Wassermen@...> (Marsha Wasserman)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 17:59:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Kids in Yishivot and Hosting Problems

Re: kids in yishivot and hosting problems, I sent the original posting
in this forum to the Rosh Yeshiva of my son's school and asked for his
opinion on the subject.  I also feel it is a big imposition for the
Israelis and hard on the kids to call a cousin who is a perfect stranger
for a Shabbat experience.  Some of the time would be great, but every
other weekend is hard.  What has anyone else done in regard to this
isssue?  Marsha Wasserman


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 13:05:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Kriah for Shemini Atzeret

In 21/79, Al Silberman writes:

>The reason for the Kriah is given in many Seforim (Likutei Maharich and
>others) as being due to it being the harvest season and consequently the
>time for giving Ma'ser. (This does not explain the custom which starts
>at Kol Ha'bchor on weekdays.)

No, that's a little off.  The reason you've given is the reason we start
Aser T'aser on Shemini Atzeret even if it does not fall on Shabbat.
This is a distinction from the practice on Aharon shel Pesah and Sheni
shel Shavuot, where we start at Kol Ha'b'chor on weekdays, and only
start at Aser T'aser on Shabbat because the parsha of Kol Ha'b'chor is
not long enough.  (I don't recall if it has 21 psukim; I think it
actually does, but in any case it doesn't have enough legitimate places
to start and stop aliyot for a Shabbat.)

But actually, looking at the kriot in Israel, the "proper" kria for
Shemini Atzeret is V'zot HaBracha, as noted in Mr. Silberman's posting.
(Why that is, in distinction to some parsha about Shemini Atzeret, may
be a whole separate discussion, if someone wants to take it up.)  What
is happening here is that:

 Although Shemini Atzeret is a "hag l'atzmo" (it's own holiday; see
below), it's also in a sense the concluding holiday of the Sukkot
season.  There are many parallels to Shavuot, which is in certain
respects the concluding holiday of the Pesah season, and of course the
last days of Pesah are a concluding holiday, too.
 On the concluding days of festivals, we usually read the "proper"
parsha the first day and Aser T'aser/Kol HaB'chor, a general holiday
kria, on the second day.
 The twist is that on Shemini Atzeret, we reverse the order, and read
the general holiday kria on the first day and the "proper" parsha on the
second day.  The why on that is not clear to me.  But my theory is that
because Shemini Atzeret in galut has aspects of still being Sukkot (see
below), "pure" Shemini Atzeret observances (which really consist of the
kria and _definitely_ eating inside) are delayed to the second day,
Simhat Torah.
 (What about "Geshem," the prayer for rain, said the first day?  I'm not
sure how that fits yet, although the idea that one should say it
immediately after completing Hoshanot comes to mind.)  If anyone has a
source for (or opposition to) this idea, please let me know.

 On "initial holidays" (Pesah, Sukkot, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur), we
read the "proper" parsha on the first day.
 On Pesah and Sukkot, we read Emor, also a general holiday parsha, on
the second day.  It just so happens that Emor is also the "proper"
parsha for Sukkot.
 On Rosh Hashana, there seems to be just one "proper" parsha, divided
into two days, just as Rosh Hashana has one kedusha, divided into two
days.  On Yom Kippur, of course, there aren't two days.

Now why Emor on the second day of "initial holidays," why "Kol
HaB'chor/Aser T'aser" on "concluding holidays," and not vice versa, and
why Shavuot is treated like a concluding day rather than an initial day,
I haven't got a clue!

Finally, related to this, I am trying to do some research on Shemini
Atzeret in galut: in what ways is it really hag l'atzmo, in what ways is
it really part of Sukkot, and so forth.  Where I think it is going is
that Shemini Atzeret is irresoluably a day of "split personality" in
galut, where the Divine purpose of Shemini Atzeret (p'shat and
kabbalistic) can never be completely fulfilled.  But if sources prove
that wrong, that's fine.  I'll report back to the list when I'm done.
In any case, if anyone can privately recommend good sources, I'd
appreciate it.

Steve White
(born Shemini Atzeret, 5720)


From: Steve Gindi <steve@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 17:28:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Lashon Hara

>From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
>       Here's a 90s question:
>       Is it lashon hara to say something nasty about someone online who is
>identified only by his or her screen name; i.e. there is no other
>identification of that individual's real name?
>   <Chihal@...> [Yeshaya Halevi]

Only on AOL are people so protected by their screen name. Most other places
require you to give your name which is attached to every e-mail.

Steve Gindi                             NetMedia (Home of Jerusalem One)
Tech Support                          ------------------------------------- 
<Steve@...>                  "Information at the Speed of Thought"
           Phone:  972-2-795-860          Fax:  972-2-793-524

From: <manne@...> (Aharon Manne)
Date: Wed,  1 Nov 95 14:58:07 PST
Subject: Lashon HaRa'

RE: mail-jewish Vol. 21 #73 
Eli Turkel brought up two questions concerning Lashon HaRa':
>   Thus Tanach can say that someone sinned since we are
>   expected to learn from that statement for our personal lives. However
>   stating that someone told Jews in Europe not to leave before the
>   Holocaust would not improve our lives and only denigrate that
>   individual.

I think the answer to the second sentence lies in the first: the Jewish
approach to learning from our ancestors biographies demands that we see
them as they were.  In fact, perhaps the type of hagiography that
attempts to gloss over the subject's faults defeats its own purpose: it
is very difficult to emulate the example of someone who was faultless.
You can also look at it the other way: if such a figure was capable of
an error of judgement (Europe before the Holocaust is an excellent
example here), how much the more so should I be aware of the limits of
my understanding.

>                                 Nevertheless, I think it is clear that
>   investigative reporters have done much to keep politician at least a
>   little more honest. It would seem that according to halachah one
>   cannot be an investigative reporter even when is sure that the facts
>   are correct. 

I don't have my copy of "Shemirat HaLashon" with me, but I believe that
the public interest is one of the basic exceptions to the prohibition of
Lashon HaRa'.  In a society based on halakha, the legal structure is
well-defined.  The question is how an observant interfaces with the
institutions of a society of law other than halakha.  (This also goes to
the question of the obligation under halakha to pay taxes legislated by
the State of Israel.)  Clearly modern Western societies depend on
freedom of the press to provide some sort of check against the powers of
the State.


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 22:36:02 -0500
Subject: Mazal Tov

I'd like to wish a mazal tov to one of the members of our cyberchevra,
Shimon Schwartz, late of Long Island, Highland Park, NJ and Manhattan.
He will be marrying Rebecca Willer, iy"H, this Sunday in Long Island.
(I want to say Lawrence, but I can never keep those places east of the
Hudson straight!)
 They will be settling down to domestic bliss in Forest Hills, Queens, NY.
 They should be zoche livnot bayit ne'eman b'Yisrael (merit building a
faithful home in Israel).  

And may they get just a little red in the face when _their_
four-year-old son asks _their_ "just-dating" friends, "So, when are you
getting married?"

Steve White


From: <msmara@...> (Mara Moshe)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 12:22:05 +0200
Subject: Origin of Hatikva melody

 Regarding the origin of the Hatikva melody I had the opportunity to
look this up in the Encyclopedia Judaica this summer. The article
explained that the poem was set to the melody of a popular Polish folk
tune called "The Ox and the Cart".
 I found this information while trying to answer the question posed to
me at Camp Ramah: what was supposed to be the anthem of Israel before
Hatikva was chosen?
 Respecfully submitted, Mara (msmara%pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il)


From: <frankele@...> (Edwin Frankel)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 23:42:17 -0100
Subject: Talmudic Sources for Black Clothing

Don't blame the gemara for today's wearing of black clothing.  As much
as I admire the ability to cite talmudic passages to this end, I also
remember a talmudic passage in which men are bidden to wear black and go
to a community where they are unknown.  Thge experience they sought was
far from religious, and some might even identify as unethical.  I don't
want to pursue it further on this list.

It is current vogue to wear black, and while it is not for me, I respect
anyone who would want to make a commitment to such a lifestyle.  Still,
however, its historic roots are far later than the Talmud, and attempts
to link it to mainstream Judaism seem a bit out of line.

Ed Frankel


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 95 10:09:56 EST
Subject: Re: Tunes

<CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi) writes:
>        However, the rabbaim still threw a fit when one of us led the
>rest in singing Adon Alom to the tune of "Scarborough Fair, by Simon &
>Garfunkle -- despite the fact that both S&G are Jewish :) .

This may be because Simon & Garfunkle didn't write that tune.
"Scarborough Fair" is an old tune.  It's (I believe) a piece of
traditional British folk music.

From: Alana <alanacat@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 11:32:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Tunes

>         However, the rabbaim still threw a fit when one of us led the
> rest in singing Adon Alom to the tune of "Scarborough Fair, by Simon &
> Garfunkle -- despite the fact that both S&G are Jewish :) .
>      <Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)

I hate to be totaly nitpicky (and also to bring this subject up again, 
because I know from past experience that I'll never hear the end of it) but:
1) Scarborough Fair is a traditional English folk song, and was NOT by 
Simon and/or Garfunkel. 
2) Garfunkel is Jewish, SImon is not. My mom lived around the corner from 
them, knew the family (all musicians), and went to high school with both 
SImon and Garfunkel.
OK. Nitpicking over. Now back to your regularly scheduled kvetching.



From: Etan Diamond <aa725@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 08:02:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Women's tefila group

Without getting into the halakhic ramifications of this issue, could 
anyone tell me what your experiences have been with women's tefila 
groups?  Specifically, how have you put them together? Do men come and 
daven behind a mehitsa?  Are there certain parts of the davening left out 
(eg, kaddish, borchu, kedusha)?

The question is relevant to my wife's cousin's bat mitzvah so any 
specific examples would be helpful.  Again, please do not start debating 
the halakhic merits or problems with this.  I know it is an entirely 
other issue for many people, but that is for another day.

Thanks in advance.

Etan Diamond
Department of History
Carnegie Mellon University


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 09:36 O
Subject: Yeshivish "Rap" music

Close Friends of mine who know I enjoy "The Shtibel Hoppers" bought me,
as a birthday present, a tape called "Black Hattitude". The tape is
essentially Rap music with a Bee-Gees musical flavor. The Philosophical
line of the tape is explicitly Yeshivish, anti-left wing runned State of
Israel, Pro-Kach attitude.  But the lyrics and the style are not a put-
on and reflect a basic identification with modernity, importance of
affluence, Chutzpa, telling it like it is. Being explicitly Yeshivish
they stress the importance of staying in Yeshivah, doing what the
yeshivah crowd does including garb and shidduch dates; but implicitly it
values "Jags", Eilat, cruising on 13th Avenue, and being cool. I find it
all very upsetting, a confusion between "Ikar" and "Tafel". In many ways
this tape is an example of the phenomenon described by Prof described by
Prof. Hayyim Soloveitchik in his article of a year or so ago in
Tradition, especially his discussion of syncopation in Modern Jewish
music. I wonder whether anyone else has heard the tape and whether their
impression was different. Perhaps, being a year away from 50 I've become
an old "fuddie duddie". I feel there's more too it!  I wouldn't have
minded if it were a very creative satire (and creative it is). But I
fear that there is an identification element which I find troublesome.


End of Volume 21 Issue 80