Volume 21 Number 82
                       Produced: Mon Nov  6  0:27:13 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Gregorian Chants
         [Eli Turkel]
Hatikva Melody
         [Edwin Frankel]
Keria on Yom Tov
         [Jerrold Landua]
Kol Habechor
         [Zvi Weiss]
Kriah for Shemini Atzeret
         [Louis Rayman]
Shabbat Hot Plate
         [Jay Denkberg]
Smetna's Melody
         [Ian Kellman]
Thanksgiving in Israel
         [Steve White]
         [Benyamin Cohen]
         [Yeshaya Halevi]


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 14:19:37 +0200
Subject: Gregorian Chants

   I have been told that the tune for hashem hashem kel rachum etc. (13
middot) sung before taking out the Torah on YomTov is based on a
Gregorian chant.  Can the musicologists on the list verify this one?



From: <frankele@...> (Edwin Frankel)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:24:20 -0100
Subject: Hatikva Melody

Ian Kellman writes: "Where does the melody for Hatikva come from? In
fact, musicologists say the origin of the gregorian chant is sephardic
religious music from medieval Spain."

The Hatikvah is based on Smetana's "Moldau"

Ed Frankel


From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landua)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 95 09:44:27 EST
Subject: Keria on Yom Tov

 Steve White correctly notes that on the second days of Pesach and
Sukkot we read from Emor, and on the last day of Pesach and Shavuot, and
on Shemini Atzeret, we read 'Kol Bechor'.  He terms both of these
readings as general holiday Parshas, although the Emor Parsha 'Shor o
Kesev' is also the proper leining for the first day of Sukkot, since it
discusses the Mitzva of Lulav and Sukka.  It turns out that 'Shor o
Kesev' is also the proper leining for the second day of Pesach, both in
Israel and in the galut.  This is because the second day of Pesach is
the day of the Omer offering (known as Yom Henef in Mishnaic terms).
'Shor o Kesev' has a detailed description of the Omer offering.  The
only difference between the reading in Israel and Galut is that, in
Israel, the leining is divided into three aliyot, and in Galut, into
five aliyot.  The second day of Pesach can never occur on Shabbat.  In
the list of leinings given in the gemara for Pesach, it turns out that
each day of Pesach has its own special leining (the well known mnemonic
is Mashac Torah Kadesh Bekaspa Pesel Bamidbara Shalach Bechora -- the
Torah is aramaic for Shor, a reference to the 'Shor o Kesev' leining.
 Thus, it turns out that 'Shor o Kesev' is not really a generic holiday
leining, but a proper leining for the first day of Sukkot and second day
of Pesach.  It is also the best leining for the second day of Sukkot,
given that it discusses Sukka and Lulav.  The only 'generic' holiday
leining is the Kol Bechor tacked onto the last day of Yom Tov in chutz
laaretz (but pushed ahead to Shmini Atzeret due to the need to read
Vezot Habracha on Simchat Torah).  In Israel, the generic 'Kol Bechor'
is never read on any Yom Tov.  It is interesting to note that the
content of 'Kol Bechor' deals mainly with the mitzvot of 'aliya laregel'
(visiting the Beit Hamikdash on Yomtov), and the requirements of Simcha
and Chagiga which go along with aliya laregel.  Perhaps we here in chutz
laaretz need to have this message drummed into us, especially as we are
observing a day of YomTov which really in an ideal situation should not
be a day of YomTov anyway.

Jerrold Landau


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 20:07:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kol Habechor

As I have not seen it here, I would like to point out that the Netziv
explicitly relates the Torah Reading of Kol Habechor/Parshat Hamoadim to
the GALUT experience....  That would explain why it is read in Galut...



From: <lou@...> (Louis Rayman)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:44:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Kriah for Shemini Atzeret

In m.j 21/80 Steve White (<StevenJ81@...>) writes:
> But actually, looking at the kriot in Israel, the "proper" kria for
> Shemini Atzeret is V'zot HaBracha, as noted in Mr. Silberman's posting.
> (Why that is, in distinction to some parsha about Shemini Atzeret, may
> be a whole separate discussion, if someone wants to take it up.)  

No, you got it backwards!  According to a long braisah in the 3rd perek
of Gemara Megillah (which goes thru all the yom-tov lainings), the
laining for Shimini Atzeres is "Kol Habchor" and for the unnamed yom-tov
sheni is "Vzos Hbracha."

Actually, you've made a fairly common error: you assume that what's done
in Israel is "right" and us chutznicks are doing our best to keep up.
While that may be true when it comes to some things, when it comes to
laining, its the other way around.  The minhagim as to what to lain on
what day all developed in chutz la'aretz.  Its the Israelis who have to
contend with loosing a day of yomtov (in Israel on Shovuos, you have to
do all the stuff that in chutz la'aretz we postpone till the second day:
Megillas Rus, the piyut that many shuls recite before the haftorah, and
yizkor.  Makes for a VERY long davening, esp if you've been up all
night), and, sometimes, gaining an extra shabbos (when the 8th day of
pesach comes out on shabbos).

I have a related thought about that braisha (or is it a tosefta) in
Megilla and the origins of Simchat Torah, but I'll have to save it for
another time.

Good Shabbos!

Lou Rayman - Hired Gun                                   _ |_ 
Client Site: <lou@...>    212/603-3375         .|   |
Main Office: <louis.rayman@...>                  |  / 


From: Jay Denkberg <73472.2162@...>
Date: 04 Nov 95 16:21:53 EST
Subject: Shabbat Hot Plate

I'm sure this was discussed, but in case it wasn't...

I have an Israeli Shabbat Hot Plate (no on/off switch). When it's on it
definetly gets to hot for me to touch. (I belive this is the definition
of yad soledes bo)

A Rav where I live has told me that I am allowed to put cooked food not
in liquid on the hot plate during shabbat.

Is this correct ???

 From what I understand from reading Shmirat Shabbat K'hilchata (SSK), I
should not be allowed to do this. As I understand it I could put any
cooked food on the hot plate BEFORE Shabbat started, but not after.

Can someone please let me know if my understanding of SSK is correct.

Thank you



From: Ian Kellman <kellman@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 09:33:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Smetna's Melody

The piece is the Moldau and the theme music is, I believe, called
v'latava which is based on a Czech folk melody. Now, whether or not the 
folk melody comes from an old jewish folk song, could start an even 
greater and probably useless, debate. So I will rest it here.
BTW it's a beautiful piece of music, and if you are not familiar with it, 
I suggest you go to the library and get a copy.
Shalom  Ian K.


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 20:36:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving in Israel

It seems that my friend Betzalel and I always have interesting things to
In V21, #76, he discusses the intervention of the Rosh HaYeshiva at Har
Etzion in prohibiting a customary Thanksgiving football game at the Yeshiva.
 I'd like to state at the outset, by the way, that I am a great admirer of
the Rosh HaYeshiva, both in scholarship and in hashkafa [ideology? outlook?],
so the following comments should _not_, ch''v, be considered in any other

>	In view of the recent discussion regarding following the 
>opinions/practices of Rav Soloveitchic, zatzal, the Rosh Yeshiva did say 
>that he ususally spent thanksgiving with his wife's family (The Rav) but 
>did not say if they had turkey or not.

Starting at the end, my understanding is that the Rav made a point of
giving his Thanksgiving morning shiur in YU early so that he get back to
Boston for a family dinner.  [I don't remember if the source was in mj
or in something else that I saw shortly after the Rav's passing, z''l.
I seem to recall that turkey was on the menu, but that recollection is
not strong.]  But perhaps someone else can confirm that.  The point is,
if it is true, that at least in the US Thanksgiving celebration is not

[This is discussed in some detail in R. Broyde's recent article in RJJ
Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. Mod.]

Concerning Thanksgiving celebration in Eretz Yisrael, I wonder if
intention has a big role. If the Yeshiva students' reasoning was really,
"It reminds us of home," then I can understand the point:

>                                 "It reminds us of home" shows that people 
>consider golus their home, not just their birthplace. While it is 
>important to make a positive contribution to a society while there, a Jew 
>should always remember that they are *away from home* when in galus, and 
>when they return to Eretz Yisrael, they don't need to be reminded of "home".

Yet, taken as a whole, the observances that are mentioned here, as well
as the ubiquitous turkey dinner, couldn't possibly be seen as offensive
if they were done purely "lishma" -- just for the sake of doing it.  So
if I'm living in Israel, and my wife decides to cook turkey on the
fourth Thursday of November just because I like turkey, and if we both
explicitly state that we are not observing Thanksgiving, it is surely
not forbidden for us to eat turkey that night, even with cornbread
stuffing and pumpkin pie!

Similarly, assuming the bitul torah concept does not hold water, surely
on the fourth Thursday in November, the students can choose to play
football, softball, soccer, or Ultimate Frisbee, or even do NordicTrac
if they so wish.
 (I don't want to get into a whole string on bitul torah here, but for
the sake of argument, I'll maintain that even a full-time Yeshiva
student has a chiyuv for some physical activity, for the sake of his
physical health.)

So at some level, the intention seems to be what drives the Rosh
HaYeshiva's decision here.

Yet, even in Israel, and even in haredi circles, not to mention dati
circles, people bring minhagim with them from other places: dress,
languages, foods, and the like.  If "reminding them of _home_" (my
emphasis) is problematic, nevertheless people clearly bring minhagim
with them for a variety of reasons, including that they simply like
them, that they're simply used to them, or they remind them of a good
memories in a place _that was once home_, though it is no longer.

It seems to me that if one is celebrating Thanksgiving in Israel, and
has a mindset that s/he is observing a positive aspect of a _former_
home, and recognizing HaShem's good both now and during the period of
their sojourn, that ought to be acceptable.

This seems to be more or less what Mr. Levitt was implying in his
posting (same issue):

>When I was a student at Yeshivat Hakotel this issue came up.  An ardent
>Kachnik declared that to celebrate Thanksgiving was Avodah Zara, and
>wanted the Rabeim to do something about this Christian influenced trend
>that was disgracing the yehsiva.  The issue was brought before HaRav
>Neventzal (shlita) of the Old City.  His response was very clear: Just
>because the Pilgrims were Christians, and they clebrated the original
>Thanksgiving, doesn't mean that it is a Christian holiday in any
>theological sense.  Moreover, it has a very different meaning nowadays
>anyway, expressing gratitude for G-d's gifts to us.  That, he said, is
>something we would all do well to do a bit more often in whatever form.
>Besides, he added, Israel has enjoyed significant benefits from
>America's success: America is Israel's greatest friend in the
>international community, it gives Israel alot of money, and Jewish
>Americans have prospered there as well.  We should be grateful as
>Israelis, Zionists, and fellow Jews.  It might not be appropriate for
>non-Americans to celebrate Thanksgiving, but it's certainly OK for

Which is said better than I can, anyway.

Steve White

PS -- If anyone on the list is actually at Har Etzion now, I'd be really
interested, respectfully, to know what the Rosh HaYeshiva might make of
this analysis.


From: Benyamin Cohen <gs01bac@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 09:39:48 -0500
Subject: Thanksgivning

I have been privy to an article concerning Thanksgiving which will
appear in the upcoming issue of the Journal of Halach and Contemporary
society. The 10-page article, by Rabbi Michael J. Broyde, details
comprehensively every major (and sometimes even minor) opinion
concerning the holiday. In its easy-to-read style, this article will
surely put to rest any further questions on the subject.
 Benyamin Cohen

[The issue appeared at least two weeks ago, and I found R' Broyde's
article easy to read and enjoyable as well. Mod.]


From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 21:52:08 -0500
Subject: Tunes

Shalom, All:
         In mj v. 22 #80, responding to my post which said in part <<the
rabbaim still threw a fit when one of us led the rest in singing Adon
Alom to the tune of "Scarborough Fair", by Simon & Garfunkle>>, Alana
<alanacat@...> said <<Scarborough Fair is a traditional English
folk song, and was NOT by Simon and/or Garfunkel.>>
        Likewise, <david@...> (David Charlap) noted <<...Simon &
Garfunkle didn't write that tune. "Scarborough Fair" is an old tune.
It's (I believe) a piece of traditional British folk music.>>
        Although Scarborough Fair is an old English song, my S&G record
album lists the credits for it as being by Simon & Garfunkle.  (Credits
traditionally list the authors of both the lyrics and music.) Some
possible explanations:
         The full name of the song is "Scarborough Fair/Canticle."  S&G
took the old English song and interwove with it an anti-war song they
(Simon?)  wrote.  Almost nobody ever calls it by its full name, just
"Scarborough Fair."  However, it is _not_ identical with the old folk
song because of the addition of such anti-war lyrics as (if memory
serves) "Generals order their soldiers to kill, and to fight for a cause
long ago forgotten."
           As for the tune itself, I doubt it was recorded merely "as
is" ("as was?").  Odds are strong the musical duo modified, tinkered
with and -- dare I say it -- fine tuned the music to fit both the new
lyrics and their own sense of style.
           And I still say it's a fine nigun for Adon Olam.
   <Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)


End of Volume 21 Issue 82