Volume 22 Number 09
                       Produced: Mon Nov 20 23:44:05 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Amir and Rabin in Torah
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Codes -- Caution!
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Education of Criminals
         [Howard Herskine]
Excerpts from Rabin's life
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Gedaliah ben Achikam
         [Akiva Miller]
Giving back land (2)
         [Ari Shapiro, Avi Feldblum]
Making conclusions
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Murder & Terminology
         [Edwin Frankel]
Response to the insincere?
         [Zvi Weiss]
The Murder and terminology
         [S.H. Schwartz]
Yitzhak Rabin's z"l Funeral
         [Ed Ehrlich]
         [Mordechai Perlman]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 23:34:44 -0500
Subject: Administrivia

Andy Goldfinger writes later in this issue:
> Mordechai Perlman has posted some information about encoded information
> in Bereshis that seems related to the Rabin assasination.
> ...
> Patterns such as that presented concerning the assassination may or may
> not be accidental. I recommend that we not quote them as evidence of the
> existence of encoded information.

and an alternate way of reading the same "remez" is also presented in
another posting. I wish to strongly echo the sentiments of these
posters, as I think Mordechai wrote in his original posting as well. Any
"hint" that is found by looking for it in the text, may or may not have
any validity. I can find lots of "messages" in the text. Incorrect use
of Codes type skip text messages can generate any message you want. Yes,
we may believe that everything that happens is somehow found in the
Torah, but that does not mean that anyway that you find something there
is meaningful.

As such I advise caution as to what meaning and value you place on these



From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 21:52:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Amir and Rabin in Torah

M. Pearlman presented one view of the pasuk in Lech L'cha.
Not to, G-d forbid, condone the terrible crime of last week...
But in the spirit of fair discussion...
I must say that others have suggested that it should be read:

'Eish Eish Ra B'Rabin H(Hey for Hashem) Gazar Y(igal) M(ikayem) HaAlah.
Fire a bad fire into Rabin so has G-d decreed, Yigal will fulfill this 

My point. We can notice remazim in the Torah, but we should not try to 
understand dangerous ones until Eliyahu will explain them to us...

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://pages.nyu.edu/~jzs7697
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: Andy Goldfinger <andy_goldfinger@...>
Date: 14 Nov 1995 10:03:00 -0400
Subject: Codes -- Caution!

Mordechai Perlman has posted some information about encoded information
in Bereshis that seems related to the Rabin assasination.

As one who speaks publically on the Torah codes (for Aish HaTorah), I
would like to recommend caution.  It is very hard to distinguish "valid"
encoded information from patterns that occur by accident.  The codes
researchers (Rips, Witztum, Rosenberg and Gans) are quite careful in
applying statistical tests and using control cases to establish the
statistical significance of their work.  They publically quote only
those patterns that have been shown to have statistical significance.

Patterns such as that presented concerning the assassination may or may
not be accidental. I recommend that we not quote them as evidence of the
existence of encoded information.


From: Howard Herskine <Howard.Herskine@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 11:14:01
Subject: Education of Criminals

Joshua D. Males posts in MJ Vol 22 #3
> Unfortunately, there is no shortage of horrible crimes in Israel, 
>yet nobody seems to check out the education that all the criminals 
>received. Nor did any of their mentors have to answer and apologize.

IMHO the source of the education that primarily motivates these
criminals is in fact the modern media (especially TV).  This explains
the correlation between the rise in crime in Israel from the 1960's
onwards and the spread of TV throughout the Land. It also explains why
the media are so zealous about rubbishing Torah & moral values and the
institutions that promote them, while omitting to "check out the
education that all the criminals received".


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 01:29:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Excerpts from Rabin's life

On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Sh'muel Himelstein wrote:

> This last Friday's *Yom Hashishi* (an independent religious weekly)
> carries an article by Rav Shear Yashuv Cohen (chief rabbi of Haifa) on
> Yitzchak Rabin. The two knew each other from the Israeli War of
> Independence on.  In his article, Rav Cohen mentions:

	The excerpts from this article were very enlightening.  I was 
hoping that some of the pintele yid still remained.  Thank you Sh'muel.

			Mordechai Perlman


From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 05:36:25 -0500
Subject: Gedaliah ben Achikam

I confess publicly to my great ignorance of Jewish history, and a great many
details about Gedalia have come to my attention only in the past two weeks.
If anyone else wants to learn more about him, I suggest reading the original
story (of course, preferably in Hebrew and with traditional commentaries) in
any bible. Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah), chapters 40 and 41. Check it out!

Akiva Miller


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 18:43:52 EST
Subject: Giving back land

<After all, we know that the entire land as promised to Avrohom will be
<K'lalYisroel's possession at that time.

The Rashbam on last week's Parsha (Vayera) has a fascinating comment on
the Akeida. He points out that whenever the Torah says 'Achar Hadvarim
Haeyla' (after these events) the it refers back to what directly
preceded it (see the Rashbam inside for his proofs). Therefore the
Rashbam says the Akeida relates back to Avraham's treaty with Avimelech
and he says the following.  God was upset at Avraham for making a treaty
and giving away part of the Land of Israel to the Plishtim, therefore he
told Avraham go sacrifice your son, and see if the treaty with the
Plishtim saves him.

Ari Shapiro

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 14:24:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Giving back land

Ari Shapiro writes:
> God was upset at Avraham for making a treaty and giving away part of
> the Land of Israel to the Plishtim, therefore he told Avraham go
> sacrifice your son, and see if the treaty with the Plishtim saves him.

Actually, as I read the Rashbam, the anger was not at "giving away land"
but at agreeing to a eternal (? to him and his children and
grandchildren) peace treaty when Yehoshua will have to battle against
the Plishtim when the Jews come up from Egypt to Eretz Yisrael. The
result the Rashbam says, as you have stated, is that Hashem tells
Avraham to sacrifice Yitzchuk. The last "and" that you have above, I'm
having some problem interpreting the Rashbam. I do not think "hoelah"
here means "saves him". If anyone else has the Rashbam, could you take a
look and see what you think the Rashbam exactly is saying?

Avi Feldblum


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 20:27:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Making conclusions

	A lot of comment has been made about deriving a halacha from
what one's rav or Rosh hayeshiva says about this or that.
	IMHO one cannot take one's teachers' comments and then derive a
halacha from them.  What I mean is this.  If one's Rosh haYeshiva, no
matter how eminent, calls someone a Rodeif, it does not necessarily mean
the Rodeif that the gemora talks about or the Rambam.  I don't even
believe that that Rav means to include the definition of the Rambam or
the gemora when speaking in such terms.  It may be that he is just using
it for emphasis.  For example, there's a well known Rosh haYeshiva in
the U.S., who's name I will refrain from mentioning who is very sharp.
If he calls someone an idiot, it in no way gives anybody else the right
to do so.  Today's Roshei Yeshiva, despite their pre-eminence in Torah,
are not Rishonim, and one cannot assimilate their very words with
concepts from the whole Torah.  One must approach one's Rebbeim
(teachers) for them to clarify exactly what they imply and what they do
not imply before taking action in any circumstance.

     Zai Gezunt un Shtark
			Mordechai Perlman


From: <frankele@...> (Edwin Frankel)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 17:52:34 -0100
Subject: Murder & Terminology

Zvi Weiss wrote:
>I have noticed since the Rabin Crime that people have referred to him as
>Z"L.  Given that Rabin was certainly not religious,

No one is accusing Rabin of having been a tzaddik or a musmach (ordained
rabbi), and thus none has yet to affix the appelation zatz"l to his name
(may the memory of a righteous one be for a blessing).  Yet, I am
mystified.  He ws not murdered as a private citizen but because he did
the duty as he saw it as prime minister of the Jewish State.  Whether he
was or was not correct, he died because of the values he pursued and the
manner in which he pursued them.  In our community, when he was
memorialized at the Monday evening following his passing, he was
described in the al maaleh as having died "b'kiddush hashem, (to
sanctify God's name).

Furthermore, while Rabin was not known for his observance, many postings
on several lists have noted his dedication to Talmud Torah. Protecting
the land and people of Israel were key aspects of his entire
professional life, whether as soldier, diplomat or politician.
Undoubtedly, whether by sheer circumstance or intent, he probably
managed to observe more mitzvot than did he desicrate.  At worst, from
what was described in Weis' posting he failed to observe the mitzvahof
"hocheach tochiach et amitecha" - "reproving an errant fellow Jew."
However, from my understanding of the halacha, one is bound to reprove
when one's words will be heard and understood.  Furthermore, if he did
not do it in public, so what?  Public words may cause halbanat panim
[lit. a whitening of the face, meaning public embarrassment - Mod.], a
lo taaseh [negative commandment - Mod.] that applies equally to all Jews
whether or not they are prime ministers.

No, for me, there is no problem of whether to say z"l or o"h.  There is
a problem, though, when we forget ladun l'khaf zchut (to judge others
leniently).  We will then have forgotten our basic humanity.  If we
can't be decent human beings because of our adherence to halakhah and
musar, in my opinion we have forgotten that part of being Jewish is to
be or lagoyim [a light unto the nations - Mod.].  We will have been
dimmed by the blindness we force upon ourselves.

Ed Frankel


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:26:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Response to the insincere?

It has already been pointed out here that there is transparent
insincerity in those claiming that all should have paid attention to the
comments of Amir in threatening to kill Rabin even as those very same
people dismiss the frightening statements by Arafat as just so much hot
air.. My quesiton is: Given the constraints that Halacha places upon us
-- what is the optimal response that a Frum person can make?  I know
that there are several alternative: show greater "love of fellow jew"
(Ahavat Yisrael); work harder in Torah Study; Peaceful demostrations;
etc.  My point is which is likely to be the most optimal and if -- as I
suspect -- there is no one "optimal" approach, what sort of taxonomy is
suitable to use here?

BTW, I once heard Rav Aharom Soloveitchik SHLITA state something that
may be suitable here... He explained the verse "HaPodeh es David Avdo
MeCherev Ra'a" -- He [G-d] Who redeems His servant David from the evil
sword.  Rav Aharon asked: What is an "evil sword"?  He answered that
normally when one faces an adversary, one always seeks to insure that
one will be as adequately armed as the adversary -- that ANYTHING that
the adversary can do can be done back to that enemy...  But for Jews,
that is not always possible -- there are some things that an adversary
can do to us that we simply CANNOT do "back" at the adversary -- it is
THAT situation that is the "evil sword" -- and yet G-d intervenes to
redeem one in such a situation....



From: <shimmy@...> (S.H. Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 03:13:11 -0800
Subject: Re: The Murder and terminology

>From: Zvi Weiss		 <weissz@...>
>I have noticed since the Rabin Crime that people have referred to him
>as Z"L.  ...Given that, why the "canonization" here?  Not long ago,
>there was a brief article in the "D'var Torah" sheet that comes from
>"MTA" (YU's boys' H.S.  in Manhattan) which discussed the usage of
>terms such as Z"L, etc.  It was clear that these terms were meant for
>Tzadikkim ...

I thought that we used ZTz"L (May the memory of a -tzadik- be for a
blessing) for such people, and that Z"L (May -his- memory be for a blessing)
for "generic" Jews.

S. H. Schwartz
NYNEX Science & Technology, Inc., White Plains NY:  <schwartz@...>
The home front, New York City:  <shimmy@...>
If all else fails:  <s.h.schwartz@...>


From: <eehrlich@...> (Ed Ehrlich)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 07:06:55 +0200
Subject: Yitzhak Rabin's z"l Funeral

The responses to the possibility that some aspects of Yitzhak Rabin's
funeral might not have been completely followed certain halachah showed
great sensitivity to what Rabin's family and the entire people of Israel
are going through now.

The following might put the problem in some perspective to those who are
genuinally upset about certain procedures that may or may not have been
carried out.  A few hours after the murder I went down to the Prime
Minister's residence in Jerusalem.  There was a large group of people
there - observant and non-observant.  While Jews with knitted kippot
were reciting Psalms, we non-observant Jews were lighting candles and
singing the "Song For Peace".  It was one of the few times in Israel
that I felt a genuine feeling of respect, tolerance and unity between
the religious and non-religious.  Both sides seemed to accept that the
others had to deal with this tragedy in their own way.

Ed Ehrlich <eehrlich@...>


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 20:45:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: ZA"L

On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, David Guberman wrote:

>       Rav Amital's Address to the Har Etzion Beit Midrash is entitled
> "On the Assassination of Prime Minister Rabin Z"L."  In his address to a
> joint meeting of the National Religious Party and Meimad, Rav Amital
> said:
>           We must put an end to the notion that the
>           non-religious community is bereft of any values,
>           and that anyone who supports the peace process is
>           weakening the Jewish character of the State.
>           Claims that Rabin, z"l, Peres and Barak lack
>           Jewish or Zionist values--and that Bibi and Raful
>           are better Zionists or Jews--are baseless.

	I fail to see the connection between this and saing Olov hasholom 
in regard to Rabin.  Saying O"H instead of ZA"L does not indicate 
wickedness.  Saying ZA"L indicates special righteousness.  It does not 
necessarily mean that one's picture need be on the gedolim cards or 
similar publicity.  But it supposes righteousness in service to Hashem.  

Sh'muel Himelstein wrote: 

> I have a feeling that the debate about whether to use "za"l" ("zichrono
> livracha" - "may his memory be a blessing" or "o"h" ("alav hashalom" -
> "peace upon him") in regard to Prime Minister Rabin is really an
> academic one, overlooking one important element:
> In the Golah (diaspora) religious Jews make this distinction between
> righteous Jews ("za"l") and others ("o"h"). Common usage in Israel - as
> used consistently for anyone dead, is "za"l". Thus, a victim of a car
> accident, or for that matter, a person who has died of natural causes,
> is generally referred to on radio and TV as "za"l," regardless of who
> that person was.
> Thus, to an Israeli, anything less than "za"l" in reference to a person
> who is dead would be considered insulting to that person's memory.

	No, that would imply that American Jews have a clearer 
understanding of the Hebrew language than do Israelis.  I don't believe 
that's true.  Are you telling me that if Yigal Amir were to be shot 
tomorrow, that the people would refer to him as ZA"L?



End of Volume 22 Issue 9