Volume 22 Number 26
                       Produced: Wed Nov 29 22:53:25 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - Rabin page on mail-jewish Home Page
         [Avi Feldblum]
Accounting in Heaven
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Agudat Yisrael Response
         [Arnold Lustiger]
Ahavas Yisrael, Enemies Lists, and R. Samson R. Hirsch
         [Mechy Frankel]
Fate, free will and murder
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Post Zionists?
         [Mordechai Perlman]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 22:52:40 -0500
Subject: Administrivia - Rabin page on mail-jewish Home Page

Several people have sent me copies of various statements, releases, etc
by members of the Rabbinic community in response to the assasination of
Prime Minister Rabin. In addition, there have been several responses
from members of the Rabbinate that have appeared on mail-jewish.

I have taken all of the above, and made it available below the mail-jewish
Home Page (http://shamash.org/mail-jewish), the direct URL for it is:

Here is a listing of what is currently there:

<TITLE> Rabbinic Statements relating to Rabin Assasination </TITLE>
<H1> Collection of Rabbinic Statements relating to Assasination of Prime
Minister Rabin</H1> 

On the Assassination of Prime Minister Rabin Z"L
	Rav Yehuda Amital
	Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Har Etzion

Statement by Rav Ovadya Yosef
	former Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, upon the Murder of
Yitzchak Rabin, as published by the Israeli Ministry of Religions 
	Translated by Shmuel Himelstein

It Is My Brothers Whom I Seek
	Ateret Cohanim, The Jerusalem Reclamation Project
	Declaration made by Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook, zt'l, in the fall of
	5708 (1947) 

Rav Aviner on the Assassination
	Comment by Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rosh Yeshivat Ateret Cohanim

Bar-Ilan University
	 Remarks by: Prof. Yosef Yeshurun, Prof. Shlomo Eckstein,
	Prof. Moshe Kaveh, Dr. Zerach Warhaftig, Arye Azuelus,  Rabbi Shlomo

Eulogy for Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin
	Dr. Norman Lamm, President, Yeshiva University

On the Murder of Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin Z"L
	Harav Aharon Lichtenstein, Rosh Yeshiva Har Etzion

The Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin
	Rabbi Moshe Sokol, Yavneh Minyan of Flatbush

Was Rabin's Assassin An Observant Jew?
	Rabbi Shmuel Boteach
	Oxford University L'Chaim Society Weekly Essay, November 16, 1995

Murderers, Nazis, Traitors, Wise Men and Noise
	Dr. Shalom Carmy, Yeshiva University

Reflections on the Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin
	Dr. Shnayer Z. Leiman, Yeshiva University

The Soul of Israel Is Now Darkened by Rabin's Blood
	Rabbin Marvin Hier
	Originally published in the Los Angeles Times, Sunday, November 5

 Finding Our Way in Darkness
	 Yossi Baumol, Executive Director, Ateret Cohanim

L'Chaim Mourns The Loss of Yitzhak Rabin, Prime Minister of
	Rabbi Shmuel Boteach

A Message from the Orthodox Rabbinate of Greater Chicago
	Text of a half page ad in Chicago Tribune

L'Chaim Mourns The Loss of Yitzhak Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel
	Rabbi Shmuel Boteach

 Loving Someone with Opposing Views
	Rabbi Shlomo Aviner
	This segment was broadcasted on Arutz-7 approx. one week prior to
Rabin's assassination


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 05:18:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Accounting in Heaven

On Mon, 27 Nov Betzalel Posy wrote:

" ...... If I remember correctly, the Gemara and the Rambam in Hilchos 
tshuva describe a tzadick as someone who has more good deeds than 
bad deeds. Even a tzadick can sin, and must pay for those sins.  I think 
that rav Amital means that in such a cheshbon, Rabin's mitzvos 
exceeded his aveiros. Obviously, this calculation is weighted. A similar 
weighting would prevent the extension of this rational to Amir, whose 
sin must have outweighed all the good that he did. He will be rewarded 
for his mitzvos, but he will suffer greatly for his aveiros.
After re-reading the summary of Rav Amital's sicha, (a summary, not a 
quote; I am not sure Rav Amital even saw it), I think it is clear that the 
Rav is not delivering a ruling in "hichos ahavas yisrael". In fact, I think 
that is the answer to his question "Why call it ahavas chinam?" Because 
it is not required. He simply said that he feels that many non-religious 
people, who do good things, *deserve* our love, regardless of whether 
the Rambam says it is an obligation or not. I must say that I do not 
understand what R. Pearlman finds objectional in that statement. ......."

	I assume you are referring to the Rambam that says that a
person's cheshbon is only known to G-d, and that he alone knows the
weight of deeds, in that a good deed may outweigh many bad ones and vice
versa.  In that case, you certainly cannot draw the conclusion you made
of the status of Mr. Amir.  Perhaps, he has done mitzvos in this world
that outweigh his heinous crime (I am not a supporter of Mr.  Amir at
any time, this is merely academic).  Who knows?  Therefore, that is an
accounting which we are not capable of for good or for bad.  How can
Rabbi Amital make this judgement?

     Zai Gezunt un Shtark
			Mordechai Perlman


From: <alustig@...> (Arnold Lustiger)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:06:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Agudat Yisrael Response

Since this subject was raised in this forum, I thought it might be
appropriate to briefly summarize the thoughts of R. Elya Svei Shlit'a at
the Aguda Convention last week on the subject of the Rabin
assassination. For those who are not aware, R. Elya Svei is probably the
preeminent spokesman for the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah in America.

Please note that these views are not necessarily my own.

He started by stating that it was a combination of Zionism and Kahanism
which caused the murder of Rabin. One of the goals of these two
ideologies is to create a strong Jew who can deal with his enemies. Amir
is the logical outgrowth of such an ideology. The chillul Hashem was
immense since the non religious are saying that it was the Torah that
forced Amir's hand.

Yet when Hashem gives these troubles to Klal Yisrael, He is sending us a
message. Boldness ("azut") is a double edged sword: it can create a
kiddush Hashem or an Amir. The Torah camp has not created an azut for
kedusha among its adherents, as a result a different kind of azut was

A story is told of a non-religious druggist from the city of Kelm who
had died. The Alter of Kelm said that anyone who is not pained by the
death of this druggist is guilty of cruelty ("achzariut"). Our response
to the death of Rabin should be the same.

If those representing an ideology are consistent in their beliefs, then
even their enemies will ultimately agree to the value of those
beliefs. Amir shattered this consistency. As a result, the non religious
are saying that Torah education is worse than public school
education. How can we possibly have fallen further?

The possible loss of Kever Rachel was greeted by much consternation in
the religious community, but the desecration of the Chashmonaim tombs
did not create nearly the same response.

In Israel, Hashem is the "ba'al habayis". If land is given back, it's
not because of a government decree but because Hashem has decreed. We
are now losing pieces of Eretz Yisrael for the sake of peace, the
necessity for which virtually all Gedolim agree. Yet we must also ask
ourselves if the fact that land is being surrendered and hundreds of
thousands of goyim are entering Eretz Yisrael as a result of the peace
agreement, is not the beginning of the dire process of "Taki Ha'aretz
Etchem" - the land vomiting us out.

A previous speaker at the convention (R. Chaskel Besser) stated that
Religious Zionism maintained that the hatred for the Religious
population among the general population in Israel was a result of their
not participating in the army, and withdrawing into ghettoes. Now we see
that the hatred is equally applied to Religious Zionists as well as
Chareidim. A subsequent speaker (R. Nachman Bulman) described in great
detail the pain and the daily indignities that the religious population
is undergoing in Israel, emphasizing that as we sit in America we have
no idea of how the tide of anti-religious hatred has risen in Israel.

Arnie Lustiger


From: Mechy Frankel <FRANKEL@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 22:38:12 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Ahavas Yisrael, Enemies Lists, and R. Samson R. Hirsch

1. Let's see now.  I'm informed by a recent poster that the proper way
to greet a random reform rabbi I pass on the street is "with a sullen
frown" because "he is doing his best in his congregation to
convince... Rabbinical interpretation of scriptures is no better than
his own or Martin Luther's". (hm, so that's what's been going on in
there).  Also my enemies list, or "extreme examples...  who should not
be tolerated" includes not only Shulamit Aloni and J4J but, mutatis
mutandis, both a Louis Jacobs and David Hartman! The mind boggles at
such an eclectic grouping and wonders if this could really be the
current hashkafic take on ahavas yisrael in his yeshiva?.

2. Too bad such insights were unavailable as yet to us during the time
my mother-in-law a"h was terminally ill in Waco, Texas and the local
reform rabbi used to drop by every week on a cheer-up visit though she
was not his congregant.  I should surely have explained that such people
are "not to be tolerated" and the other hospital patients he used to
regularly visit might also have been forewarned in time to whip out
sullen frowns at his approach.

3. The problem of course is the implied loa plug inability to make
informed discrimination between people who may - to borrow from the
technical medical jargon - simply be whacked out, people who have
ideological/religious differences with you, and real risha'im.  And
while I am unfamiliar with tishuvos on lashon hara via the internet, I
suggest that, just as the poster backed off, albeit grudgingly, from
trashing Rabin z"l in the face of positive testimony, he should
similarly pause before publicly trashing named individuals, whom he may
have only the most marginal familiarity with, if at all. There are also
those who believe that a cordial sholom aleichim to a passerby of
different religious perspective than ourselves has somewhat lower chilul
hashem potential than the recommended sullen frown routine.

4.  R Shimson Rephael Hirsch: As a final note, the poster asked
rhetorically if we considered Rav Hirsch's "declaration of Austritt to
be rash and impulsive....After all this didn't show friendship" as
though the answer was foreordained . Actually the story is considerably
more complex than that. (For a good recent reprise you might peruse the
last chapter of the recently published "Hakerah Sheloa Nis'acha" by
Jacob Katz, publ M. Ben Zvi).  There were quite a few chushiva talmidei
chachamim and rabbanim, including some who considered themselves and
were considered by others, to be more important/learned leaders than
R. Hirsch, who strenuously opposed R. Hirsch's communal politics of
complete organizational separation - and for very good reasons (e.g. how
many people think its such a great idea to run, on your sectarian own,
an orthodox hospital separate from the broader community facility?)
Indeed R. Hirsch's policy, though successful at the macro political
level of achieving legislative recognition of the right to separate, was
in practice rejected even by his very own orthodox community in
Frankfurt, since about two thirds of the congregation simply ignored his
impassioned entreaties to resign from existing communal bodies. Rav
Hirsch's approach may, or may not, have been right for his time and
place but it was certainly not self-evidently so.

Mechy Frankel                                       H: (301) 593-3949
<frankel@...>                                W: (703) 325-1277


From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 13:47:12 -0500
Subject: Fate, free will and murder

Shalom, All:
      Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...> asks if, when
someone murders, they have truly taken away from the victim's allotted
span of years since God has already decreed long in advance just how
long a person has to live.
       This question is really the classic of fate vs. free will, and
has an existing, already answered correllation, IMHO.  Consider the case
of such baddies as Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar etc.  I was taught that when
it came time for them to be punished for what they did to B'nai Yisrael,
their defense was, "Hey!  God said the Jewish people should be punished
for their sins.  I was merely the Divine instrument.  Therefore I cannot
be keelhauled."
        Their defense was rejected by God Himself.  "True," they were
told, "My people deserved chastisement.  But who told _you_ to run to do
the deed and commit your violence?  You did it for your own ends, and
thus shall be judged accordingly."

<Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:48:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:  Post Zionists?

On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Sh'muel Himelstein wrote:

> Many of the post-Zionists have a simple credo, which is
> totally destructive to Israel as a Jewish state. Among some of their
> beliefs are:
>  a) The Jews "stole" the land from the Arabs, therefore the "wrong" must
> be undone.
>  b) All the Arab refugees from 1948 on must be readmitted.
>  c) Israel must be a "state like every other state" - with no official
> religion, no involvement of the state in any way in religion, and - if
> the majority of the country is Arab - then they will run the country as
> they see fit.

	I'm not exactly sure what these "post-zionists" are.  Although it 
sounds very much like they espouse ideas similar to the religious group 
whose actions are incomprehensible to many of us, the N'turei Karta.  

     Zai Gezunt un Shtark
			Mordechai Perlman


End of Volume 22 Issue 26