Volume 22 Number 31
                       Produced: Wed Dec  6  1:49:50 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Ahavas Chinom
         [Warren Burstein]
Ahavas Chinum
         [Mordechai Torczyner]
Ahavat Yisrael: Sources
         [Anthony Fiorino]
My initials
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Rav Elya Shvei's remarks
         [Jeffrey Woolf]
Reishit Zemichat Geulateinu
         [Danny Skaist]
Religious Zionism in Crisis
         [Aryeh Frimer]
         [George Max Saiger]
Sullen Frowns
         [David Riceman]


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:19:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Ahavas Chinom

Mordechai Perlman writes:

>	So you feel that we should show love to all Jews, regardless of
>their behaviour.  If so, I ask you how you approach the following?  When
>a J for J missionary (Jewish) has chosen your neighborhood (children
>included) as his target group for missionizing?  Do you invite him for
>tea or bang on the table in shul to warn others about him?  Now the
>latter approach certainly does not show brotherly love.  How about a
>preacher for masoretic Judaism, such as Louis Jacobs?  Or David Hartman?

I've heard Rabbi David Hartman speak on a number of occasions and fail
to understand what he is doing being grouped with Christian

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


From: Mordechai Torczyner <mat6263@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:15:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Ahavas Chinum

> Mordechai Perlman writes:
> >So you feel that we should show love to all Jews, regardless of
> >their behaviour.

	I missed the original posting of this comment, only getting the
reprint, but I don't think the Gemara in Yevamos 79a has been cited yet
in response. In discussing the death of 7 members of Shaul HaMelech's
family for Shaul's deeds, the Gemara asks from the pasuk "Children shall
not be killed for their fathers" and responds that "Better that 1 letter
from the Torah should be uprooted, rather than have Hashem's Name
experience Chillul in public." A similar expression, but in the positive
(Kiddush Hashem) format, is brought regarding the fact that the 7
corpses were left hanging all night, violating the prohibition against
leaving the body of an executed individual "hanging".
	The Gemara then defines Kiddush Hashem as an action which will
cause people to say: "Ayn Lecha Umma SheRi'uyah Leedabek Bah KeZu"-"You
have no nation which is fit to be joined, as this one is." It would
seem, then that Chillul Hashem is an action which causes people to
declare that Benei Yisra'el are not fit to be joined.
	Having said that, can there be any question of what the Gemara's
opinion would be of a position which does not show love despite
disagreement, which repudiates rather than reproaches? I am not
suggesting approval of Mrs. Aloni or the other cited examples, but as
has been pointed out numerous times in the wake of the hideous
asassination, ther can be disagreement without furor. Perhaps when we
can handle this sort of reaction, we can reach Yeshaya's description of
Kiddush Hashem, "Yisra'el Asher Becha Espa'ar": a Yisra'el with whom
Hashem can be glorified.
					Mordechai Torczyner 


From: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:53:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Ahavat Yisrael: Sources

There has been some discussion lately about ahavat yisrael (the
obligation to love other Jews) and the conditions under which ahavat
yisrael carries the weight of halachic compulsion.  There are a few
articles that have tackled this issue from different perspectives; some
may be interested in taking a look at these:

Bleich JD "Parameters and limits of communal unity from the perspective 
   of Jewish law" J Halacha Contemp Soc 6:5-20

Bulka R "Love your neighbor: halachic parameters" J Halacha Contemp Soc

Lamm N "Loving and hating Jews" Tradition 1989;24(2):98-122.

Schacter JJ, ed. Jewish Tradition and the Non-Traditional Jew. Northvale 
   NJ:Jason Aronson Inc, 1992

Schochet IJ "Let sins be consumed and not sinners" Tradition 

Sherman A "The halachic approach towards nonobservant Jews" in 
   Crossroads: Halacha and the Modern World vol 1. Jerusalem:Zomet; 

I also recommend an article written in 1978 but very relevant today, 
about the significant ethical failure of contemporary Orthodoxy:

Levitz IN "Crisis in orthodoxy: the ethical paradox" Jewish Life 
   Fall-Winter 1977-78:23-28; reprinted in Bulka R ed. Dimensions of 
   Orthodox Judaism. Hoboken NJ: Ktav Publishing, 1983

Eitan Fiorino


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:39:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: My initials

	I have seen many times being referred to as R. Perlman.  I must
assure those who are confused that my initial is M. not R.  Someone has
suggested that he R. stands for Rabbi.  I am not a Rabbi and have not
obtained ordination to be a Rabbi.  Any reference to me as Rabbi Perlman
only assists in causing others to confuse me with Rabbi Mordechai
Perlman of Ohr Somayach, who indeed bears the same name as I, but is a
Rabbi while I am not.

Alle Yidden Zolen Zein Gezunt un Shtark
(Except for missionaries of every colour)
					Mordechai Perlman


From: Jeffrey Woolf <jwoolf@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:33:11 +0300 (IST)
Subject: Rav Elya Shvei's remarks

I was sorry to hear that Rav Elya Shvei's intense hatred for anything
Zionist prevents him from sincerely sharing our grief. Instead, just
like the Post-zionists and Canaanits, decides to hurt the entire
Religious Zionist community with a great big 'I Told you so.' I
certainly agree that the Mizrachi world produced an abominatioin in
Yigal Amir, and those sympathetic to him. However, that hardly
delegitimizes all that the Kippa Seruga world has achieved. Furthermore
the fact that we serve in the security forces actually modulates the
secular reaction to us.
	The key problem is that the Merkaz HaRav ideology made an Avoda
Zara out of the land. My teacher, Rav Soloveitchik zt'l once remarked to
me that the reduction of any mitzva to an end in itself, without concern
for the moral or intellectual content and/or context thereof, is
ceremonialism and ceremonialism (he said with a flourish) is paganis, ie
you can make an Avoda Zara out of mitzvot(e.g. Humrot). Later I realized
that the Torah itself provides an example, the Copper Serpent which was
later destroyed by King Hezeiah.
	The RZ community is reeling from the results that their over
state messianism has wrought. I think we will see alot more influence of
religion on the secular community now. First, because we'll find a
common denominator politically for the final status agreement and also
because the response to the PM's z'l murder has shown how spiritually
starved secular society is.
	So, instead of Rabbi Shveii gleefully wishing destruction, death
and exile on those of us who take the mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael
seriously (sas opposed to mitzvat Yishuv Monsey, Teaneck, Lakewood and
Chicago), I think that the withdrawal into 'Smaller Israel' and the
detachment from the Arabs is God's way of getting religious and secular
Jews to live trogether again so that we may achieve a common Jewish
Laguage in this, the only place wherein Jews were meant to live.

					Jeffrey Woolf


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 14:33 IST
Subject: Reishit Zemichat Geulateinu

>Arnie Lustiger
>Recent years have seen the growth and decline of two significant
>messianic movements in Orthodox Judaism. The first, Lubavitch chassidus,
> ...
>The second movement is Gush Emunim: the vision of R. Zvi Yehuda Kook,
>that the conquering of territories was a precursor for the Messiah, is
>now being refuted by the facts on the ground: how does giving back
>territory fit into such a messianic scenario?  The cognitive dissonance
>among the residents of the shtachim, i.e. the inability to reconcile

The 3rd redemption, (although we have hoped any prayed otherwise) will,
it seems, follow the same pattern of the first 2, and come at a time of
complete hopelessness where only divine intervention can save us.

"Final" redemption from Egypt came at the Red Sea, after 7 days of what
was conceived as redemption, and then, only after a hopeless situation
which could only be saved by divine intervention.

In "galut bavel" permission was given to rebuild the temple and it
looked as if redemption was at hand, But "Final" redemption from Bavel
came after permission to rebuild the temple was revoked and a death
sentence was passed on all the Jews, and only through divine
intervention could we be saved.

>I would like to submit that perhaps we are in the midst of a decline in
>a third messianic movement: that of Religious Zionism itself.  Can the
>present State of Israel now even be remotely called "reishit zemichat

Leaving Egypt and getting permission to rebuild the temple were "reishit
zemichat geulateinu" even though the final redemption came later and
only after a massive deterioration of the situation.  It seems that we
are still on course.



From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 09:39 O
Subject: Religious Zionism in Crisis

    In Mail-Jewish (vol. 22 #28) Arnie Lustiger talks thoughtfully about
post-religious zionism, and I heartily agree that religious zionism is
in crisis. Many of the doubts raised by Reb Arnie were expressed a while
ago by others in the religious zionism camp - and I refer the readers to
an outstanding article on the subject which appeared in August 1995 in
the Jerusalem Report.
   I have lectured on the subject in LA, Cleveland and Chicago and have
noted that in many respects (educationally, youth activities, settlement
communally) things have never been better. But as far as our influence
on and partnership with the secular zionists things have never been
worse. As far as Arnie's disillusionment, all I can respond is: (1)
Yeshuat Hashem keheref Ayin (G-d's salvation can come in the blink of an
eye); (2) We as religious Jews have always done what we thought
necessary as a matter of faith, whether popular or not; (3) Kudsha Brikh
Hu (The Holy One) never promised us a rose Garden - Au contraire (on the
contrary) "ein eretz yisrael nikneit elah be-yissurim" - the land of
Israel is only acquired through trials and tribulations.
    Keep the Faith! And pray for mashiach - 'cause boy could we use him!


From: George Max Saiger <gmsaiger@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:40:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Shloshim

I thought you would all be interested to know that tonight the Orthodox
community of greater Washington DC observed the sh'loshim of Yitzchak
Rabin, z.l., with a Siyum HaMishna.  The turnout wasn't great, but the
organizers had the forsight to use a relatively small hall, so that it
was packed.  The community had been asked to prepare with a study of the
Mishna to be completed tonight.  The M'sayem Sishah Sidre HaMishna was
Rabbi Gedalia Anemer.  Other members of the Rabbinical Council of
Greater Washington also participated, mostly by leading T'hillim
(120-123, 130 and 133).  They were Rabbi Jack Bieler, Rabbi Yitzchak
Breitowitz, Rabbi Barry Freundel (who was called to New York today but
sent a message), Rabbi Chaim Kassorla, Rabbi Joel Tessler, Rabbi Kalman
Winter, and the President of The Rabbinical Council, Rabbi Hillel
Klavan.  The keynote address was by HaRav Shear Yashuv Cohen,, Chief
Rabbi of Haifa.  Besides eulogizing Prime Minister Rabin, he talked a
lot about the unity of Israel and Jews everywhere, regardless of
divisions like right/left, secular/religious, frum/not frum.  He pointed
out that a spiritual impulse is alive in the hearts of secular Jews, as
evidenced by all the candles lit for Rabin.  "Even on Shabbat," he
noted, "but that's a start."  Remarks were made by The Honorable Sholomo
Gur, Minister-Deputy of Mission, Embassy of Israel.  The thrust of his
remarks was that there is now a change; that we can no longer forget
that words and deeds are directly linked.  I was ill at ease with this
at first, thinking it might be heard as a broadside against the Orthodox
community, but his words were echoed by the Rabbonim, esp. Rabbi
Tessler, who ended the evening by suggesting that we commit ourselves to
study this year of the dangers of lashon harah, recommending study of
Pirke Avot, The Hafetz Hayim and Lashon Harah.

George Saiger


From: ulysses!<dr@...> (David Riceman)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:40:55 EST
Subject: Sullen Frowns

  In order to perform a truly fine sin one needs (1) to know that one is
sinning and (2) to sin for the sake of sinning (rather than, say,
irresistable temptation).  In principle only the truly fine sinners
deserve sullen frowns, and this lets out all the conservative and reform
rabbis I know as well as Mr. Amir.  All sides in the sullen frown debate
seem to distinguish between these two.  Is this a halachic distinction,
or are all of you utilitarians with different loss functions?

David Riceman


End of Volume 22 Issue 31