Volume 22 Number 34
                       Produced: Sun Dec 10 17:06:19 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - Annual Mail-Jewish Chanuka Party
         [Avi Feldblum]
Administrivia - Noting MJer Todd Litwin is in mourning
         [Cheryl Hall]
Hating the Wicked
         [Eli Turkel]
Kavod Hatorah
         [Warren Burstein]
Loving your fellow Jew
         [Menachem Glickman]
On not playing G-d: Religious Zionism in Crisis - Pt. II
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Post Zionists?
         [Carl Sherer]
Religious Zionism on the Defensive?
         [Adam Schwartz]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:02:20 -0500
Subject: Administrivia - Annual Mail-Jewish Chanuka Party

Hello One and All,

This is the official invitation to all mail-jewish members and friends
to join is some Chanuka fun on the last night of Chanuka, Sunday Dec
24th starting at 7:00 pm in the evening. The gathering will be in
Highland Park, NJ at the home of your moderator, Avi Feldblum, at 55
Cedar Ave, Highland Park, NJ. There should still be directions up in the
mail-jewish archive area under the file "directions", but I will double
check this evening. While an RSVP is not required, it would be
appreciated, as it will let me know how much food to have available.

Looking forward to seeing a number of the "local" chevrah, as well as
any visiting mail-jewish members and any new people or people who did
come in previous years.

Avi Feldblum


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 1995 08:27:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia - Noting MJer Todd Litwin is in mourning

I need to pass on this information to the Mail-Jewish Chevra.  Todd
Litwin is a longtime recipient of Mail-Jewish, and is the good friend of
mine who peaked my interest enough to get me connected to the
Net. Todd's father was buried yesterday (Wed 12/6). Todd is sitting
shiva in Norwalk/LaMirada, CA.

Todd seldoms posts, and when he does it is a very short request for a
source or a reference.  But the MJ List is one of his favorite topics of
conversation and is definitely a learning experience. Many Shabatot
D'vrei Torah have revolved around our MJ discussions, amplified on them
and made all of us much more aware of the workings of halachah.

Cheryl <CHERYLHALL@...> Long Beach CA USA


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:58:07 +0200
Subject: Hating the Wicked

   Mordechai Perlman writes
>>  When a J for J missionary (Jewish) has chosen your neighborhood
>> (children included) as his target group for missionizing?  Do you
>> invite him for tea or bang on the table in shul to warn others about
>> him?  Or David Hartman?  Do you tell your children that Mrs. Aloni is
>> a kind soul and wishes the best of hatzlacha for all mitzva
>> fulfillers, or do you tell them the exact opposite?  When you meet
>> the local Reform "rabbi" on the street do you wish him a hearty
>> Sholom Aleichem or a sullen frown?

   I find this approach very disturbing and in real life it will
accomplish the opposite of what Mordechai wants. As Mechy Frankel points
out on a personal level one frequently receives favors from irreligious
people. Should one refuse to acknowledge such help? One can accomplish a
lot more with a hearty Shalom Aleichem that with a frown. As Yosey
Goldstein has pointed out we are required to hate the sin not the sinner
(see Berachot 10a).  We can object to anti-religious ideas without
denigrating the individual person.  A doctor is allowed to violate
shabbat to save a gentile because otherwise it will cause hatred. How
much more so must we be friendly to others so as not to cause
hatred. Being freindly is not the same as agreeing.

    I also object to his selection of people, David Hartman? To the best
of my knowledge Rabbi Hartman is an orthodox rabbi. That Mordechai
disagrees with his philosophy is irrelevant. I have several friends who
have participated in the Hartman institute, should I now frown at them?
How about Rabbi Y.  Greenberg? Sorry to say I have letters from major
gedolim that one is not allowed to be together with any rabbi from
Poalei Agudat Israel (some of whom were students of Chazon ish) not to
speak of low level people like Rabbi Goren. Maybe next time I see Rav
Lichtenstein I should greet him with a frown because some people
disagree with his approach, certainly not with a hearty Sholom Aleichem!

    Let me conclude with some quotes from Jewish sources on the correct
attitude towards others (my translation)

1. When all Jews are united then even if they worship idols the strict law
   (middat ha-din) does not affect them (tanchuma shoftim 18)

2. When a bet din kills a person for some major sin they must choose the
   least painful way to accomplish this because of the mitzvah of loving
   thy neighbor (ketubot 37b and sanhedrin 104b).

3. we love the wicked because of the spark that is in their soul
   (orach le-chaim on parshat Noah)

4. A person is required to pray that the wicked should repent and so not
   enter gehinnom (Zohar on tehillim 35:13)

5. G-d's wish is that the righteous of Israel should atone for all the
   other levels. G-d does wish the destruction of the wicked ... so in
   his prayer he should pray for the atonement of all those that require it
   (messilat yeshorim 19)

6. the mitzvah of helping one's fellow Jew is included in the mitzvah of the
   unity of G-d. We all come from the same block. Just as when one limb
   is in pain the whole body feels it so also for the Jewish people.
   (end of kedushat levi)

7. A person should make a practice of loving everyone even the wicked as
   if they were his brother. One should wish that each becomes a righteous
   person. How should one love his fellow man? in his mind he should only
   think of their good deeds and hide their sins and so only think about the
   best ib everyone (Tomer Devorah).

8. One should not speak evil about any Jew because doing so requires him
   to be an "ed chamas" (see shemot 23-1) when the prosecuter is the evil
   inclination. Hence, if one must speak against an evil person he should
   state explicitly that he speaks about the bad ways and not about the
   person himself (Baal Shem Tov)

9. The soul of the lowest Jew is still very high and contains great holiness
   (Rav Nachman Breslov).

10. We are required to hate the wicked. However we are also required to
    love every Jew. We resolve the conflict by hating the sin and loving
    the sinner. (Tanya)
11. Israel will not be redeemed until they are united (Tanchumah - nizavim)



From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:55:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Kavod Hatorah

Harry Weiss writes:

>but what about Rabbi's who are the driving forces behind political
>movements such as Rav Yosef (re Shas) and Rav Shach (re Degel Hatorah).

I am sure that disrespectful remarks addressed at the leaders of Shas
and Degel Hatorah, even if only in their capacity as politicians,
would be soundly criticized on this list.  I think the same is in
order with regard to the head of Meimad.  Even with regarding one another.

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


From: Menachem Glickman <mglick@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:57:14 +0000
Subject: Loving your fellow Jew

Eli Turkel writes in Digest 28:
>  My difficulty is with a demonstration of some 200,00 people 
>against the archaeological diggings in Modiim that appeared recently 
>on Israeli TV.  As part of the demonstration a curse was issued that 
>the hands of the archaeologists should be destroyed.

Unfortunately, this shows the insidious way in which the non- and,
indeed, anti-frum media manage to influence our outlook.

I quote from the report on the demonstration by Judith Weil in the 
Jewish Tribune (the British Agudah weekly):

"Among the prayers recited [was] a tefilla originally composed by the
Mekubal Rabbi Chaim Palagi ztl, at a time when non-Jews were desecrating
Jewish cemeteries.  The prayer entreats that whoever gives a hand to
desecrating burial places should have his hand cut off.  This is
understood idiomatically to mean that the person should be unsuccessful
in his endeavours to desecrate the graves.  But the anti-religious media
chose to understand it as a 'Kabbalistic curse'."

Unfortunately, I think it can be taken as given that any reporting of
religiously inspired activities in the Israeli media will be distorted-
unless, interestingly enough, it involves chessed shel emess after a
terrorist bombing.

BTW, the Tribune gives the attendance at the demonstration as 20,000,
not 200,000.  Apparently Israeli radio originally only reported 200,
until forced to up its estimate..

Kol tuv
Menachem Glickman                          IL Computing Services    
<mglick@...>             Gateshead   UK


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 11:41 O
Subject: On not playing G-d: Religious Zionism in Crisis - Pt. II

Regarding my previous post on religious zionism in crisis:
     To make matters crystal clear, I still stongly believe that Medinat
Yisrael is reishit tzmichat geulateinu, but I am not so naive or haughty
as to believe that Hashem has to play out the script the way I think it
it should go. I act based on my beliefs and I believe Rabin zal and
Peres are going about it all wrong. But I dare not play G-d. I may well
be wrong and perhaps Hashem is on Rabin's side. Were I around 100 years
ago, I imagine that I like most of the Frum world would have been a- or
anti-zionistic. History seems to have judged that generation wrong.
    But by the very same token, it may well be that those who oppose
any return of land - or even those who, like I, are in the Nationalist
camp and attend right-wing demonstrations despite believing in land
for "real" peace because this ain't it - are all wrong. And this despite
the fact that most (not all!) of the Gedolim I defer to are against the
political decisions of the present government. But those who "know"
for sure - are either prophets or playing G-D - and, IMHO, zo hi lo
ha-Derekh (this is not the way).


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 8:10:57 IST
Subject: Post Zionists?

Mordechai Perlman writes:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Sh'muel Himelstein wrote:
> > Many of the post-Zionists have a simple credo, which is
> > totally destructive to Israel as a Jewish state. Among some of their
> > beliefs are:
> >  a) The Jews "stole" the land from the Arabs, therefore the "wrong" must
> > be undone.
> >  b) All the Arab refugees from 1948 on must be readmitted.
> >  c) Israel must be a "state like every other state" - with no official
> > religion, no involvement of the state in any way in religion, and - if
> > the majority of the country is Arab - then they will run the country as
> > they see fit.
> 	I'm not exactly sure what these "post-zionists" are.  Although it 
> sounds very much like they espouse ideas similar to the religious group 
> whose actions are incomprehensible to many of us, the N'turei Karta.  
> Comments?

R. Himelstein left out the following:
	d) They are virulently *anti*-religious.  That would exclude Neturei
	e) They believe we have no G-d-given right to Eretz Yisrael - ever.
That would also exclude Neturei Karta.

>      Zai Gezunt un Shtark
You too my friend :-)
-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Adam Schwartz <adams@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 11:31:02 +0200
Subject: Religious Zionism on the Defensive?

Just some points in response to Arnie Lustiger's post.

1. religious zionism and messianism need not be bedfellows.  I know of
   at at least one rosh yeshivat hesder who has said so.  I prefer not
   to speak bshem omro because noone has ever given me permission to
   speak in their name.

2. There is validity to the State regardless of its role in the
   messianic process.  one need not hold like the extreme position of
   merkaz harav kook, i.e., "We are currently in the itchaltah dgeulah
   and it's irreversible".  a couple of years ago, I heard a dati
   philosophy professor speak on 4 approaches to the state of
   Israel. The 4 poles as he called them: nturei karta vs merkaz harav
   kook vs dati leumi vs agudah.  I've heard he later wrote an article
   on this but have not read it.  Several thoughtful friends of mine
   have independently come up with the same categorizations.

3. even if it were the Itchalta d'geula, and even if it were
   irreversible, does anyone know what route this geulah will take?
   perhaps it's more circuitous than some modern day 'neviim' have
   predicted.  I know of an israeli rav who has written this pretty
   recently.  although it is curious why some people consider making
   peace with ones enemies a hinderance to the geulah.

I honestly don't think religious zionism is on the defensive.  But I do
think that all who profess to have moshiach in their back pocket have
some serious thinking to do.  As I remember, a certain Rav said that he
saw, or foresaw, several reactions of people unable to reconcile their
messianic philosophies with the "present realities".  They become
unobservant, they join the haredi camp, or they reevaluate the role
messianism plays in their personal philosophies.

this last choice, the one he advocated, is the most complex, but noone
ever said living judaism was easy in modernity.



End of Volume 22 Issue 34