Volume 22 Number 36
                       Produced: Mon Dec 11  4:05:24 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Attending Xmas/Holiday Parties
         [Moshe Hacker]
Descendants of Rav Elchonon Wasserman
         [Shalom Fuchs]
Gersonides, Crescas
         [Josh Backon]
Jews Believe: Born Without Sin
         [Shlomo Grafstein]
         [Judy Heicklen]
Shimon Hatzadik
         [Chaim Saiman]
Smoking (3)
         [Zvi Weiss, Stan Tenen, Barry S. Bank]
Targum Yonason
         [Al Silberman]


From: Moshe Hacker <HACKERM@...>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:18:55 EST
Subject: Attending Xmas/Holiday Parties

What is the deal with going to holiday parties at work this time of 
year. Even if they serve Glatt kosher food for us Jewish folks.

Moshe Hacker


From: Shalom Fuchs <shalomfu@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:33:27 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Descendants of Rav Elchonon Wasserman

> 	Does anybody know of any living descendants of Rav Elchonon 
> Wasserman?
> 					Mordechai Perlman

As I know he had a son - Rav Simcha Wasserman - Rosh Yeshivah in Jerusalem.
Rav Simcha wasserman died 3 or 4 years ago, and he has no children.
His grave is in Har Hamenuchot Jerusalem near HACHIDA grave. I don't know 
about other descendants.

                              Shalom Fuchs


From: <Michael_Lipkin@...>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 10:57:24 EST
Subject: Fluff

I called the OU (212 563-4000) and was informed that the flavored
Marshmallow Fluffs (including strawberry) are under supervision as long
as there is an OU on the label.  The women I spoke to said the unlabled
Fluffs MAY be supervised by she can't officially guarantee their kashrus
if the OU is not on the label.

On another front, my wife informed me that she did see Strawberry Fluff
in our local kosher market (Dan's).

So maybe it's OK to go ahead and, "have another fluffernutter".

BTW, the OU has posted an e-mail address in their folder on AOL.  It's



From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Sun,  10 Dec 95 23:44 +0200
Subject: Re: Gersonides, Crescas

To find English-language articles about Gersonides or Crescas try the
RAMBI database at Hebrew University. Telnet aleph.huji.ac.il  login as
aleph   Then type: lb/jnl.rbi

Josh Backon


From: <RABIGRAF@...> (Shlomo Grafstein)
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 12:32:17 -0400
Subject: Jews Believe: Born Without Sin

In my Torah class at Dalhousie University there are several non-Jews.  I
have an opportunity to orient them to the 7 Noahite Laws etc.  One
Calvanist was surprised that the Jewish principle of purity of the soul
was espoused.  WE find in our siddur, My G*D, the soul which YOU have
given to me is pure..."  He said that if the "born without sin" is a
given from The CREATOR, then there is no Christianity.  As we know
Christianity is based upon a different form of sin and atonement than
 I am requesting any readers of mail Jewish to supply me with sources
and information regarding the purity of the neshamah.  If a messianic
would tell you that you were born with sin, and you need his approach to
become pure, what would you answer??
 Thank you,
Sincerely Yours,
Shlomo Grafstein
Halifax Nova Scotia Canada


From: Judy Heicklen <JHEICKLE@...>
Date: 06 Dec 1995 21:13:21 EDT
Subject: Lilit

   This is a response to Elisheva Appel who asked for some information
about Lilit.  The topic had come up the last time my husband's family
was all together and I did some researching for the source.  The story
is mentioned in a few other places, but this is by far the most complete

   The source of the Lilit story.  Here goes:

         After the Holy One created the first human being, Adam, He
   said, "It is not good for Adam to be alone."  He created a woman,
   also from the earth, and called her Lilit.  They quarreled
   immediately.  She said, "I will not lie below you."  He said, " I
   will not lie below you, but above you.  For you are fit to be below
   me and I above you."  She responded, "We are both equal because we
   both come from the earth."  Neither listened to the other.  When
   Lilit realized what was happening, she pronounced the ineffable Name
   of God and flew off into the air.  Adam rose in prayer before the
   Creator, saying, "The woman you gave me has fled from me."
   Immediately the Holy One sent three angels after her.  The Holy One
   said to Adam, "If she wants to return, all the better.  If not, she
   will have to accept that one hundred of her children will die every
   day."  The angels went after her, finally locating her in the sea, in
   the powerful waters in which the Egyptians were destined to perish.
   They told her what God had said, and she did not want to return.

                                   -Alphabet of Ben Sira 23A-B

She is also mentioned in the Bavli and the Zohar.

   Later sources add more of the "devil" attributes that Elisheva was
asking about.  It it said that in order to have so many children she
tempts men into having wet dreams so that she can use their sperm and
that she steals babies.  Therefore, it is common to put up amulets
around newborns to ward her off (I believe that this is more a Sephardic
custom than Ashkenazic, but I can't verify that).

   The reason she was adopted by the Jewish Feminist movement (for
example, there is a Jewish feminist magazine called "Lilith") is that
she was unwilling to be subservient to man and was willing to pay the
price for her independence.  There is lots of symbolism drawn from the
story (the passivity of Adam as he kvetches to God, Lilit fleeing to the
Red Sea, which ultimately becomes the path of freedom for the Jewish
people, her being created from the earth, not from Adam, etc...) which
further supports the feminist agenda.  The feminist thought is that the
later sources which turn her more demon-like were intentional efforts by
the rabbis and scholars to discourage women from being independent and
"rebellious" and to encourage them to be more subservient like Eve.

   Please note that Elisheva quotes Eisenberg-Sasso's story as saying
that Adam sent Lilit away because he couldn't handle her.  All of the
research that I have done has shown that she left on her own accord, not
that he banished her.  I would be curious to see where Eisenberg-Sasso
got that angle from.

   I am a bit surprised that your rabbi had never heard of this story.
Further information can be found in Encyclopedia Judaica under "Lilith"
(and in a lot of other places, mostly feminist works.  IF you want a
list, please let me know).

   A final note.  Both my husband and my brother-in-law sent me your
posting (independently) as they were cruising mail-jewish: they couldn't
resist poking at the family feminist.

Judy Heicklen (<jheickle@...>)


From: <gs01cns@...> (Chaim Saiman)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:10:38 -0500
Subject: Shimon Hatzadik

I was wondering if anyone could refernce me to a discussion about the
Agadeta concerning Shimon Hatzadik and Alexander the Great (Yoma 69a)?
Additonally, If any on ecan help me in finding resources as to the
different opinions as to when Shimon Hattzadik lived I would appreciate

Chaim Saiman
Atlanta, Georgia
e-mail: <gs01cns@...>


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:30:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Smoking

I am pleased to hear that Yeshivot are starting to attack the issue of
smoking... I believe that RJJ in Edison is ALSO taking a more "active"
stance.  However, I am still concerned that Yeshivot in Israel seem to
be much less responsive (and often those are considered the "best"
Yeshivot...) Not too long ago, there was an article in Am Hatorah (from
Pirchei Agudah) about smoking which seemed to say that a NON-smoker
could NOT insist to a smoker that the smoke was bothersome because of
"Shomer P'saim Hashem"! (of course, the smoker was told to be a "nice
person" and not be obnoxious but the main point was that the NON-smoker
had no real recourse).  I know that is not the attitude here any more
(at least in most places) but the continuation of such attitudes in
Israel (and their effect upon Bochurim who go there to study) seems to
be quite worrisome...  Also, the fact that Yeshivot do NOT prohibit
smoking on Yom Tov (since it seems that smoking is NOT "Savah Lchol
Nefesh" -- i.e., is not a "common pleasure" engaged in by all classes)
seems to be counterproductive.  (A discussion on the question of smoking
on Yom Tov appeared in Rabbi Bleich's column in TRADITION some years ago
and while Rabbi Bleich feels that smoking per se cannot be prohibited
based upon "Shomer p'saim Hashem" (G-d watches the simple and prtects
from commonly accepted widespread hazards...), he also concluded that
smoking was NOT a prmitted activity for Yom Tov (if I recall

From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:08:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Smoking

Dick Fiedler states:
 >Stan Tenen seems to be very focused on the cost/benefit ratio of
 >smoking vis-a-vis for himself and in so doing skips the main reason
 >that smoking cannot be tolerated - it's effect on others.

 >The dangers of second hand smoke are now well documented.  A smoker is
 >statistically reducing the life span of all who suffer to be in his

Perhaps Dick missed the following three sentences in my posting?

 >...Smoke is not healthy to breathe.  Period.
 >...(That does not mean that they may impose it on others, however.)
 >...(BTW, I am not trying to defend or justify extreme cases of
 >addiction or denial, misuse by immature persons, or of acute unhealthy
 >behavior that can result from the use of some substances.)


From: <bsbank@...> (Barry S. Bank)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:55:00 -0500 
Subject: Smoking

On 29 Nov, Zvi Weiss wrote:
"...On the one hand, we tell people Do Not Smoke (it is
dangerous,expensive, unhealthy, etc.) and we direct these messages to
the young... On the other hand, these same people see their Rebbeim,
Poskim (in some cases), and others all puff away -- even when others may
find it objectionable.
 Well, what sort of message do you think that this sends?...

 The fact is that all too often it appears that people HIDE behind R.
Moshe's Responsa to justify some utterly obnoxious behaviour.  R. Moshe
was CLEAR that while he could not PROHIBIT smoking (in his opinion)
because of the danger involved, it was NOT a habit to be encouraged by
any means..."

1.  It's my understanding that R. Moshe's p'sak was that one who had not
started smoking was prohibited to start, but that, in view of the
dangers of stopping a habit/addiction, he would not require one who had
already begun smoking to stop.

2.  R. Moshe's son-in-law, Rav Tendler, gives an annual Medical Ethics
lecture in Jerusalem every summer.  In his last 2 lectures he castigated
those Roshei Yeshiva who allow their bachurim to smoke and who do so
themselves.  This past summer, he stated that R. Moshe's p'sak was given
at a time when the dangers of smoking were not as clearly known as they
are now.  He said that he is CERTAIN from working with R. Moshe over the
years on medical issues -- particularly the p'sak on smoking -- that had
R. Moshe known then what we now know about the dangers of 1st and 2nd
hand smoking, there is no question but that he would have prohibited
even those who are addicted to continue smoking!



From: <asilberman@...> (Al Silberman)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 14:02:32 -0500
Subject: Targum Yonason

In Volume 22 Number 29 reference is made to Targum Yonasan on the
Torah. As a point of information there is no such a thing as a Targum
Yonason on the Torah.

The Gemara in Megillah 3a where Targumim are discussed only says that he
wrote a Targum on Neviim. The Aruch (actually the Mosif) under the
Shoresh (root) of Alef, Shin, Nun discusses the subject and says that it
is really a Targum Yerushalmi. The Radal in his introduction to Pirkei
D'Rebbe Eliezer also discusses this matter and says that it is a Targum

The Encyclopedia Judaica (under Bible - translations) states that the
error originated with Recanti in the 14th century who mistook the
abbreviation Tov-Yud and believed it was Targum Yonason instead of
Targum Yerushalmi.


End of Volume 22 Issue 36