Volume 22 Number 53
Produced: Mon Dec 25 21:05:59 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chafetz Chaim and Trotsky
[Chaim Twerski]
Cheilek and Toch Kidei Dibbur
[Micha Berger]
Curses (2)
[Yitzchok D. Frankel, Mordechai Torczyner]
HaPardes
[Shmuel Jablon]
Kano'im Pog'in Bo
[Mordechai Perlman]
Lilith and Satan
[Michael Shoshani]
Pig heart valves (2)
[Menachem A. Bahir, Avi Feldblum]
Reason for cursing Trotzky
[Mordechai Perlman]
Revoking Semicha
[Shmuel Himelstein]
The Chafetz Chayim cursing Trotsky
[Menachem Glickman]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <chaimt@...> (Chaim Twerski)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 14:52:50 -0600
Subject: Chafetz Chaim and Trotsky
I heard the event of the Chafetz Chaim and Trotsky from Reb Simcha
Wasserman zt'l, who heard it from his father, Reb Elchanan Wasserman
zt"l, who, I believe but am not certain, was directly involved.
The Chafetz Chaim said that while other members of the Communist party
are not Jewish, and therefore cannot be put into Cherem, Leon Trotsky
was Jewish and could be put in Cherem. He made the effort to find out
the hebrew name of Leon Trotsky (his first name was Labe, but I do not
recall his father's name). He then proceeded to do so. Shortly after
the cherem, Trotsky was banished from power and went into exile. Years
later he was assisinated.
Accordingly, there was no Pulsa d' Nura, but a plain ordinary Cherem
(which, based on the g'morah in Moed Katan, is powerful enough.)
I did not hear that he later regretted his action, (and cause for this,
if true, would be that Stalin, [who was his chief rival, and cause and
beneficiary of Trotsky's ouster] was probably much worse and more
harmful than Trotsky would have been), but it is certainly reasonable to
assume so.
Another story regarding the Chafetz Chaim and Trotsky, that I had heard
from another source (not nearly as reliable) is that a certain melamed
once told the Chafetz Chaim that in years past he had taught a certain
youth who was so unruly and so full of chutzpah, that he expelled him
from the cheder. The name of that boy was Lable. Some investigation
led to the conclusion that this boy was none other than Leon
Trotsky. The Chafetz Chaim admonished him saying that who knows whether
the expulsion of this unruly but obviously very bright boy led him to
the path of becoming a Communist leader rather than becoming a Godol
B'yisroel. The moral to us all (which is true even if the story is not)
is that one must not seek the easy solution in education, for the
harmful consequences can be far greater than anyone can imagine.
Chaim Twerski
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 07:22:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cheilek and Toch Kidei Dibbur
Anyone know if there exists a connection between the cheilek (1/1080th
of an hour) and toch kidei dibbur (lit: within the time it would take to
speak)?
The key phrase for toch kidei dibbur is (at least in one opinion)
shalom eilechah Rebbe uMori -- Peace to you my Rabbi and Mentor
which is 10 syllables. It is not unrealistic to think that when greeting
someone you respect you'd speak at a formal 3 syllables per second. This
would make
1 toch kidei dibbur == 1 cheilek
(I realise I wrote that "==" in C out of habit. I'm leaving the gaff as is
for humor value.)
To contrast, the American tradition that it takes 1 second to say "1
Missisipi", is 5 syllables per second. But this assumes you are trying
to slow down someone who is trying to talk as rapidly as possible.
My motivation for wanting them to be equal is that this would give us a
uniform quantum of halachic time.
So, I repeat the question, does anyone know of someone more knowledgable
than myself making (or disproving) such an equation?
Also, does anyone know how this figure, 3-1/3 sec.s, corrolates to
human perception?
Micha Berger 201 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3255 days!
<AishDas@...> (16-Oct-86 - 5-Oct-95)
<a href=news:alt.religion.aishdas>Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed</a>
<a href=http://haven.ios.com/~aishdas>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <Ydfrankel@...> (Yitzchok D. Frankel)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:46:09 -0500
Subject: Curses
Mordechai Perlman writes:
>Actually, the story is that after the Chofetz Chaim saw that upon
>cursing Trotzky, that Stalin came to power and was worse.
Therefore,
>when Hitler came to power in '32, he was not willing to curse him,
>because who knows what may arise instead of him.
First of all the Chofetz Chaim passed away on September 15,1933 long
before German Jews had any idea as to how bad things were going to
be. Hitler Y.Sh.Vz. was first appointed chancellor on January
30,1933. The famous Nuremberg Law was first passed on September
15,1935. At the end of 1933 Jews were still saying the T'fila lishlom
hamidina (the prayer for the welfare of the State).
In his famous talk about the Shabbos which he spent in the home of the
Chofetz Chaim, Harav Shimon Schwab Z.Tz.L. related the story about the
cursing of Trotsky. He explained that the reason that Stalin and others
were not cursed was because the curse could only be effective on a Jew.
The tape of this speech still exists. I would like to know the sources for
any other different explanations
Sincerely,
Yitzchok D. Frankel
Long Beach, NY
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mordechai Torczyner <mat6263@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:47:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Curses
Yeshaya HaLevi excerpts Yosey Goldstein:
He once heard "from a Rebbi that learned in Europe and went thru the
camps, that the Chofetz Chaim was asked to Curse Hitler. The gist of his
[the Chafetz Chayyim's] reply was that what was happening was the direct
will of the Ribbono shel Olom , The master of the universe, and he could
not curse him. I therefore would not just assume that Tzadikkim just handed
out curses"
Yeshaya HaLevi then points out:
> This raises some interesting questions. Firstly, in both the
> Jerusalem Post and mail-jewish I read that Leon Trotsky was cursed by the
> Hafetz Hayeem. If one can curse Trotsky, then kal va'homer (a priori) one
> can curse Hitler.
> Secondly, if we accept all evil as being directed by God -- and
> therefore *immutable* -- then why ever struggle against it?
My own limited understanding of curses, based primarily upon the
Gemara in Berachos 7a about Bil'am but also upon several similar passages
elsewhere, is that the purpose of a curse is to 'remind' Hashem of the
sins of others, and so bring about intervention against the plans of an
individual or a group. Given that the Gemara also states (I forget where
at the moment) that one who calls for Divine judgment of others is going to be
judged at that point as well, I would think that Chazal were reticent about
cursing for good reason.
Aside from that, though, it would seem to me that Yosey
Goldstein's story indicates that the Chofetz Chayyim decided that Hashem
had 'made up His mind' on Hitler, and that while we are certainly
supposed to stand against evil, a curse would be futile.
Mordechai Torczyner
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <ShmuelAJ@...> (Shmuel Jablon)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:51:46 -0500
Subject: HaPardes
I am looking for 20 back issues of the journal HaPardes. Does anyone know
anyone who might be willing to give, sell, or trade them?
vol 3:8,9; vol 7:3,4,7,9,12; vol 8:5,8;vol 10:1,5; vol 13:7,12; vol 14:1;vol
15:2,3,4; vol 16:4; vol.17:4,9
Chanukkah Sameach!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:20:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Kano'im Pog'in Bo
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Mordechai Torczyner wrote:
> This does not change Mordechai Perlman's response, but it is
> interesting to note that this principle only applies at the moment that
> the crime is being committed. Afterwards, the punishment is Malkos,
> executed only by a Bais Din with all of the attached rules that go with
> Bais Din.
That is true for the Jewish man. However, in the uncensored
versions of the Rambam, the Rambam says that the gentile woman is killed
regardless, just like the animal in a case of bestiality, because she was
a stumbling block.
A Lichtige un a Lustige Chanuka
Mordechai Perlman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <shoshani@...> (Michael Shoshani)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 06:10:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Lilith and Satan
> From: <ask@...> (a.s.kamlet)
> Interestingly, the Keren Hebrew/English TaNaCh tries to transliterate
> proper nouns. So it will say in English: Yerushalayim and Ya'akov.
>
> However here, when it comes to Lilith, it does not do this, but
> rather, says, "The wild creatures of the desert also shall meet with
> the jackals, the scops owl shall cry to his fellow, the tawny owl
> also shall rest there and find for herself a place of rest."
> ...
> Of course, Keren also makes sure that there is never, anywhere in
> the English, any mention of Satan. I believe it is because the
> publishers believe all appearances of satan in TaNaCh are not to a
> proper noun-ed being, but to an adversary or prosecutor, and that's
> what appears in Keren. And they seem to believe Lilith is some
> sort of owl. FWIW.
The probable reason that the Koren TaNaKH (not "keren") does this is
because of the belief that saying an entity's name gives them special
koach. Thus there are many many observant people who will not say names
such as satan, lilith, samael, or even the word "sheyd".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <tjvmab@...> (Menachem A. Bahir)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 07:45:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Pig heart valves
I agree that any step must be taken to save a live,even to use a pig
value. However,we must also keep in mind at all times that all of
HASHEM's creations are of value and must be respected. Therefore it would
be wise on our parts to stress a healthly lifestyle so we can take care
of ourselves without the use of one of HASHEM's creation's life. A well
balanced diet, exersise,freash air,pure water,sunshine,rest,and ofcourse
the one ingredient that should be at the top of the list love of HASHEM
and the following of his laws"where all true health comes from".
Menachem Bahir
<tjvmab@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 11:37:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Pig heart valves
Menachem A. Bahir writes:
> I agree that any step must be taken to save a live,even to use a pig
> value. However,we must also keep in mind at all times that all of
> HASHEM's creations are of value and must be respected. Therefore it would
> be wise on our parts to stress a healthly lifestyle so we can take care
> of ourselves without the use of one of HASHEM's creation's life. A well
> balanced diet, exersise,freash air,pure water,sunshine,rest,and ofcourse
> the one ingredient that should be at the top of the list love of HASHEM
> and the following of his laws"where all true health comes from".
While I fully agree that one should "stress a healthly lifestyle" and
that "all of HASHEM's creations are of value", I have great doubts as to
whether the ideas above are consistant with what I see as the approach
Chazal and the Reshonim take to the animal kingdom. From what I see, the
fully acceptable purpose of an animal would be to in some way
support/enhance a person's life and in particular, a Jew's ability to
continue to do mitzvot.
Avi Feldblum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:26:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Reason for cursing Trotzky
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Yeshaya Halevi wrote:
> This raises some interesting questions. Firstly, in both the
> Jerusalem Post and mail-jewish I read that Leon Trotsky was cursed by the
> Hafetz Hayeem. If one can curse Trotsky, then kal va'homer (a priori) one
> can curse Hitler.
The reason given as to why the Chofetz Chayim cursed Trotzky is
this. There is a rule that the Jewish people are responsible for the
public acts of the individual. The Chofetz Chayim felt that Trotzky's
sins (which included thousands of murders) were too heavy for the Jewish
people to bear. Therefore, he had to removed. He did not do so himself
but asked for G-d's assistance in the matter.
A Lichtige un a Lustige Chanuka
Mordechai Perlman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:15:40 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Revoking Semicha
Although I never saw it while I was in the Baltimore Yeshiva (Ner
Israel), rumor had it that the Yeshiva insisted on students about to
receive Semicha signing a form that their Semicha would be revoked if
they accepted a pulpit in a Conservative or Reform temple. I know at our
Hag Hasemichah (Ordination ceremony)in 1966 no such form was required of
us. Maybe the form was reserved for special students ...
Shmuel Himelstein
<himelstein@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Menachem Glickman <mglick@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 15:03:58 +0000
Subject: The Chafetz Chayim cursing Trotsky
The ArtScroll "Reb Elchanan" (p58) relates that this event took place
shortly after the Russian Revolution, after the Chafetz Chayim had
returned from his flight into Russia during WWI, but does not specify a
date.
According to this version, the Chafetz Chayim assembled a minyan to
place a cherem [ban of excommunication] on Trotsky and to curse him with
"all the curses in the Torah".
This does not sound very Kabalistic to me - a cherem is fully within the
power of any Beis Din, and "all the curses in the Torah" may simply
refer to reading the relevant pesukim [verses]. It would work through
"tzadik gozer veElokim mekayem" [the righteous man decrees and Hashem
carries it out].
According to the ArtScroll, the Chafetz Chayim explained that he could
not put Stalin into cherem because it was "not in [his] power" -
presumably referring to the fact that the success or otherwise of Esav
[Esau, i.e. Western culture] is dependent on the relative merits of all
of klal Yisrael [the Jewish people], not on a special Divine decree.
This would also explain why we have no record of the Chafetz Chayim
attempting to curse Hitler. He certainly knew that WW2 would come and
what it implied ("Sod Hashem lerayov" - Hashem reveals his secrets to
those who fear him). I have seen it recorded and heard from a talmid of
a talmid of the Chafetz Chayim that he told people that what was coming
would make WWI look like a "kinderspeil".
Menachem Glickman IL Computing Services
<mglick@...> Gateshead UK
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 22 Issue 53