Volume 22 Number 55
                       Produced: Tue Dec 26 23:00:37 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Book about Observance
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]
Clarification on Kanayim Pogim Bo
         [Michael J Broyde]
Fasting for German Jewry
         [Eli Turkel]
Information on Rav Neriah Z"L
         [Dave Curwin]
Kanayim Pogim Bo
         [Mordechai Perlman]
Kol Isha
         [Hillel Raymon]
Kol Isha and Silent Lip-Synching
         [Sam Gamoran]
Returning Food to an Oven on Shabbat
         [Israel Botnick]
Shabbos Rosh Chodesh Mussaf Shmoneh Esrei
         [David Twersky]


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <andyls@...>
Date: 26 Dec 1995 10:40:01 -0600
Subject: Book about Observance

Gershon Dubin had asked about a book explaining observance (and
specifically, Shabbos) to the non-observant. I can't recommend any book
more highly than

*How to Run a Traditional Jewish Household* by Blu Greenberg

which was a huge help to both my wife and I as we became more observant.
Her description of the craziness of a household racing towards Shabbos,
and the extraordinary calm that descends as the candles are lit, is just

 Andy Levy-Stevenson                     Email:       <andyls@...>
 Tea for Two Communications              Voice & Fax:   612-920-6217
 2901 Salem Avenue South                                            
 St. Louis Park, MN 55416                                           


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 10:20:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Clarification on Kanayim Pogim Bo

In a recent posting, one writer stated:
> > 	This does not change Mordechai Perlman's response, but it is
> > interesting to note that this principle only applies at the moment that
> > the crime is being committed. Afterwards, the punishment is Malkos,
> > executed only by a Bais Din with all of the attached rules that go with
> > Bais Din.

Mordechai Perman stated in response:
> 	That is true for the Jewish man.  However, in the uncensored
> versions of the Rambam, the Rambam says that the gentile woman is killed
> regardless, just like the animal in a case of bestiality, because she was
> a stumbling block.

I believe that this post contains an unintended implication that is in
error.  The Rambam can be found in Issurai Beah 12:10 and states:
	A Jew who has a sexual relationship with a Gentile above the age 
of three, whether an adult whether married or single, even if the Jew is 
only older than 9, since he had sexual relations intentionally, she is 
killed since a Jew came to tragedy through her actions, like the animal 
[who is killed after one has intercourse with it].  This is explictly in 
the torah [quoting a proof from the incident in parshat bilam]

	The crucial question is whether this Rambam is a continuation of
the previous halacha of the Rambam that any Jew may extra-judically kill
a male Jew who is having *at the moment* sexual relations with a
	As an initial matter, the halacha of the Rambam is itself 
considered difficult, and as noted by the Magid mishna is without clear 
talmudic source.  Indeed, it is not cited lehalacha by the poskim when 
they discuss the issue at all, and is clearly left out of the tur and 
beis yosef's discussion of this issue.
	Even if the halacha was like the Rambam on this matter, the 
achronim who discuss the Rambam clearly state that this halacha requires 
a beit din, and is not a manefestation of kanayim pogim bo.  A Jew may 
NOT unilaterally kill the woman, like he may the man.  This is clearly 
stated by Radvaz 6:2133 and Iggrot Moshe EH 1:38.  This din -- like the 
rule that one who violates that Shabbat is killed -- requires a court, 
and a maseh beit din.  
	The implication in the post that after the fact no maseh beit
din is needed (the operative words being "regardless") appears to me to
be wrong.
	I write this not merely lehagdil torah, but because halachic
statements that imply that one may kill another person without a maseh
beit din (which is more than a mere psak, and is something that we no
longer have the authority to issue), can be very dangerious and lead to
tragic results.  This is even more so true when the Rambam that this is
based on is the subject of dispute.  Indeed, Mordechai Perlman wrote
privately to me that he did not intend to imply that this killing was
part of kanayim pogim bo. 
 Rabbi Michael Broyde


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:30:19 +0200
Subject: Fasting for German Jewry

     I have received several private requests for more information
concerning the responsa I previously quoted.

     The responsa is by Rabbi Hayyim Eleazar Shapira of Munkacs
(1872-1937) and was written in Solvakia, 1933a It appears in his
responsa Minchat Eliezer volume 5 #36. It has been translated into
English in the book "Rabbinic Responsa of the Holocaust Era" by Robert
Krischner, Schocken Books.  Below are selected quotes from the English
translation, see the original or the translation for more details.
      Rabbi Shapira had a large hasidic following and was considered a
major posek and expert in kabbala (does that qualify him to be called a
gadol?).  He was a controversial person. Among other deeds he put a
cherem on Rabbi Issacher Rokeach the Admor from Belz. He also had
continuing fights with the zionists.

      Because of an economic boycott organized by the nazis against
jewish businesses it was suggested that a fast be held to pray for their
safety.  Many rabbis including Rabbi Shapira were asked to sign the
proclamation. The responsa is his negative reply to this request.

portions of the responsa (from the translation by Krischner) - 

      ... But the legions of the devil, among them the hypocritical
leaders including many rabbis and others who have led Israel astray. For
their main goal is only to pray for the welfare of the gentile nations
and other such foolishness. ... But they [i.e. the German Jews] denied
and overturned the words of the living G-d; even if one says that he
believes in the coming of the Messiah, if he does not await the
Messiah's coming he denies [the G-d of Israel]... In any event I thought
that when [the Nazis] imposed the boycott in Germany against Jewish
businesses, this was certainly not a reason to ordain a fast. For nearly
all [of the Jews] in Germany profane the Sabbath publicly by [keeping]
their stores [open]. Now they are being paid back measure for measure
 ... If the German Jews do not repent their sin of profaning the Sabbath
then [to ordain a public fast] would be to reinforce their behavior of
profaning the Sabbath.  ...
      Now that the Nazis have cast off the veil of everlasting shame
from their faces, there is a real danger to life in our country, Poland,
      But I cannot consent to sign my name to the proclamation ... Will
the Zionists, Mizrahists, Agudists and the like return to G-d and his
      Our sages said in Ker (6b) that a fast in which none of the
sinners of Israel participates is no fast. We learn this from the
galbanum which is one of the ingredients of the incense. This means that
the sinners of Israel may comprise only one tenth of those who
fast... But our case does not warrant a worldwide fast for those wicked
[German] Jews are known to be nearly as numerous as we are.


From: Dave Curwin <6524dcurw@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 22:58:31 EST
Subject: Information on Rav Neriah Z"L

I am looking for information or sources of information on the life and
thought of Rav Moshe Tzvi Neriah z"l, who died recently. Since I work
for Bnei Akiva, I am looking for sources outside of Bnei Akiva, although
I am very interested in his involvment in creating Bnei Akiva. Can
anyone help me?

David Curwin		With wife Toby, Shaliach to Boston, MA
904 Centre St.          List Owner of B-AKIVA on Jerusalem One
Newton, MA 02159                   <6524dcurw@...>
617 527 0977          Why are we here? "L'hafitz Tora V'Avoda"


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 10:24:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kanayim Pogim Bo

On Tue, 26 Dec 1995, Michael J Broyde wrote:
> 	I write this not merely lehagdil torah, but because halachic 
> statements that imply that one may kill another person without a maseh 
> beit din (which is more than a mere psak, and is something that we no 
> longer have the authority to issue), can be very dangerious and lead to 
> tragic results.  This is even more so true when the Rambam that this is 
> based un is the subject of dispute.  Indeed, Mordechai Perlman wrote 
> privately to me that he did not intend to imply that this killing was 
> part of kanayim pogim bo.

	I agree with the posting, but is K.P.B. something which can be 
practised today?

				Mordechai Perlman


From: <Raymhill@...> (Hillel Raymon)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 20:36:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Kol Isha

In response to a recent poster, my cousin Eliyahu Teitz related:

>There is a story, misquoted in a Torah tape, about my great-grandfather,
>Rav Elozor Preil, and Rav Baruch Ber Leibowitz.

>Rav Baruch Ber was a rosh yeshiva at Yeshiva R. Yitzchak Elchanan for a
>short while, as was my great-grandfather. R. Baruch Ber and some
>talmidim came to spend Sukkot with my great-grandfather. My grandmother
>and her sisters were seated in the house for lack of room in the sukka.
>They were singing zmirot and one of the talmidim turned to R. Baruch Ber
>and asked about a kol isha situation.  His reply was, "They aren't
>singing..they're davening ( saying zmirot ) with a tune."  He had no
>problem with allowing them to continue.

I don't know what story was on the Torah tape, but the story Eliyahu
relates is (also?) a slight distortion of what happened, as I was long
ago told by my mother (one of the zmiros-singing sisters).  Here are the
facts, as my mother has just re-confirmed to me this evening:

Rav Baruch Ber was visiting the home of my grandfather, Rav Elozor Mayer
Preil, for Shabbos (it was not Sukkos--he did visit on another occasion
for the Shmini Atzeres-Simchas Torah yom tovim, but that's another
story), together with his son-in-law, Rav Reuven.  At the appropriate
time during the Friday night meal when the family would sing zmiros, the
girls joined in, as was their usual practice.  My aunt (Eliyahu's
grandmother) was certainly over the age of bas mitzvah, and my mother
(who was two years younger) believes she was also.  Rav Reuven became
upset and turned to Rav Baruch Ber and audibly said "Kol isha!"  Rav
Baruch Ber smiled and said it was alright---"zey leiben der Abishter mit
a niggun" (they are praising G-d with a song).  The zmiros continued
without further ado.

Hillel Raymon <raymhill@...>
Highland Park, NJ


From: Sam Gamoran <gamoran@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 08:31:19 +0000
Subject: Kol Isha and Silent Lip-Synching

A few weeks ago the Chashmonaim girl's choir was invited to perform (I
think this was the 'older' girls choir so they were over Bat Mitzvah).
For 'technical' reasons and to avoid questions of Kol Isha (woman
singing) their numbers were pre-recorded and they were instructed to
stand and silently lip-synch with the recording.

The evening of the performance, they were told that at the request of
someone who was present (I don't know who) that to avoid 'marit ayin'
(appearance) of singing, they would be required to sit on the stage
without any lip-synching while the tape was played.


Sam Gamoran
Motorola Israel Ltd. Cellular Software Engineering (MILCSE)


From: <icb@...> (Israel Botnick)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 95 10:53:21 EST
Subject: Returning Food to an Oven on Shabbat

A recent poster wrote the following:
< Although I have heard it recounted by another person also, I would be
< very surprised if the Rav permitted returning food to the OVEN on
< shabbat.  I was under the distinct impression that the Rav permitted
< returning food only to the blech, if it was on the blech or in the oven
< prior to shabbat.  Permitting returning food to the oven, in my opinion,
< is unrelated to the correctness or incorrectness of the RaN

In Rabbi Eider's book on hilchos shabbos he writes that Rabbi Aharon 
Kotler zt'l permitted returning food into an oven on shabbat (as long as 
the knob for changing temperature has been covered). 
He explains why the shulchan aruch's prohibition against returning food 
into a keera(oven) does not apply to our ovens.
Perhaps Rav Soloveitchik had the same reasoning. (I have also heard a  
separate reasoning in the name of Rav Soloveitchik as to why returning 
food into an oven would be permitted, but it was not heard first hand.)

Israel Botnick


From: <twerskyd@...> (David Twersky)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 20:04:22 -0800
Subject: Shabbos Rosh Chodesh Mussaf Shmoneh Esrei

I would like to throw out the following observation / question which has
been bothering me for many years to mail - Jewish cyberspace to see if
anyone has noticed it and/or has come up with a reason to explain it.

In the Mussaf Shmoneh Esrei for Shabbos Rosh Chodesh (Ata Yatzarta) we
say "...but because we sinned before You -- we and our forefathers --
our City was destroyed and our Holy Temple was made desolate, our honor
was exiled and glory was taken from the House of our life.  So we cannot
fulfill our responsibilities in Your chosen House, in the great and holy
House upon which Your Name was called, because of the hand that was sent
against your Sanctuary...".  This is of course reminiscent of the
paragraph beginning "Mipnei Chateynu" in the Mussaf for the Sholosh
Regalim (Festivals).

The observation/question is that we don't mention this theme in the
regular Shabbos Mussaf OR in the regular Rosh Chodesh Mussaf.  Why all
of a sudden in the combination of the two, is this theme evoked.

I have come up with a personal thought on this observation.  In order,
however, not to prejudice other answers, I will hold off posting my
thoughts for a later date, bli neder.  In the meantime I would be
interested in hearing whatever anyone else has seen or thinks about this

Metzudas Dovid  -- David Twersky on the interNET


End of Volume 22 Issue 55