Volume 22 Number 66
                       Produced: Wed Jan  3  0:29:48 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Custom in House of Mourner
         [S.H. Schwartz]
Mussaf on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh
         [Roger Kingsley]
OU hashgacha in hebrew
         [David Neustadter]
Question about kosher slaughter
         [Matthias Ulrich Neeracher]
Rav Baruch Ber and Shabbat Rosh Chodesh Mussaf
         [Shlomo H. Pick]
Search for articles relating to Rav Moshe zt"l
         [Yehudah Prero]
Yehuda's Grandsons (2)
         [Rabbi Yossi Chaikin, Carl Sherer]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:17:21 -0500
Subject: Administrivia

Hello all, and to those of you who had some vacation over the last week
or so, welcome back!

As the secular year moves from 1995 to 1996, it is a moment to look back
and look forward (not the ONLY time, but a valid time nontheless). We
enter 1996 with almost 1725 subscribers to the list, as well as some
number that may read the list via Usenet newsgroup (if your service
provider says that they have 15,000 newsgroups, then the Shamash lists
are likely amoung them) or directly via the Web. To both the new and old
members, I'm looking forward to an exciting year of Jewish activities in

I've done some work on the mail-jewish home page
(http://shamash.org/mail-jewish), the most significant is that basically
the full mail-jewish volume archives have been indexed and they are
searchable from a click the mail-jewish Home Page. Give it a try and
tell me what you think. There is also a link on the bottom of the page
that allows one to join the list (not needed for those of you reading
this, as you are already on the list), but also accesses some other of
the listproc capabilities, such as dropping off of a list, and seeing
what lists you are subscribed to. Please feel free to give me your
comments on what new you would like to see on the mail-jewish home page.

With the closing of the 1995 secular year, I would like to take the
opportunity to thank all those that have sent in mail-jewish
subscription contributions during the last 12 months. For those of you
who are working on the secular year calendar for things like this, and
would like my address for sending in 1996 subscription contributions
($36 suggested rate /$18 student rate/ any amount you would like to send
in), the check can be made out to either Avi Feldblum or Mail Jewish,
and sent to: 

55 Cedar Ave
Highland Park, NJ 08904

Another activity that has progressed very nicely during 1995 has been
the searchable Kosher Restaurant Database (available on the mail-jewish
home page). At last count, we over 525 entries in the database, and over
450 of those items had been entered or updated during 1995. If you use
the database, and you see an entry that is MORE than 6 months old,
please feel free to update the entry even if you have no additional
information to add, but can confirm that the current information is
still valid. We've also changed the format in which the information is
returned to make it somewhat more user friendly. I expect to continue
making some changes over this coming year to make it even better.

We have a new sublist of mail-jewish, called mj-ravtorah. This list is a
distribution list for the weekly divrei torah that Josh Rapps has been
posting here on mail-jewish for the last several weeks, based on
Dr. Rivkin's notes of Rav Soloveichek's lectures at Moriah (I
think). Josh will have an official announcement going out later this
week on mail-jewish.

With Chanukah finished, it is time to start thinking about Purim. One
aspect of Purim is the annual mail-jewish Purim edition and script. As
was the case last year, Sam Saal will be editing that issue, and he has
a call for helpers that will go out later today as well.

OK, I think that is sufficient from me for now, please feel free to send
me email telling me what you like or don't like about the list, any
suggestions you may have etc. I may not always implement what you ask,
but I do always read it. [By the way, if we have a decent shell
programmer on the list, I'd like to change the way the first 9 issues
get numbered, from 1,2,3 etc to 01,02,03 etc, so that they will list
better. The script I use to send out the issues, autoincrements the
issue number variable as: SEQ=`expr $SEQ + 1`, which will take SEQ=01
and turn it into 2, not 02. Anyone who can give me a hand on this, I'll
mail you the script for comments and suggestions]

Avi Feldblum
Shamash Facilitator and mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: S.H. Schwartz <shimmy@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:43:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Custom in House of Mourner

>From: <zevbarr@...> (Zev Barr)
>I have just been to a Minyan where the only mourner is an only daughter and
>it struck me as strange that we say the same  words "HaMakom yenachem ETCHEM
>b'toch shaarei aveilei Tzion v'Yerushalayim" to every set of avel/im.  
>Does anyone have the custom to say "HaMakom yenachem OTACH...." etc.,

Absolutely.  I don't understand this phrase as a fixed formula
(e.g. Amidah) to recite, but as the appropriate thing to say to a
mourner under most circumstances.

Three related situations:
 --Saying "Birshutchem" before making hamotzi for a group.
Specifically, when just my wife and I are home together for Shabbat, I
usually say, "Birshuteich."
 --"Shalom aleichem."  Sometimes I modify "aleichem" for the recipient.
Sometimes not.
 --"L'shana haba'ah tikateivu v'teichateimu."  One of the popular
machzorim (Birnbaum? ArtScroll?) has the four variations (male/female,
singular/plural) explicitly.



From: Roger Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 22:11:54 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Mussaf on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh

While we are on this topic, I should like to ask for suggestions on
something that has been puzzling me for some time.
   The mussaf for Shabbos Rosh Chodesh seems to be the _only_ Shmoneh
Esrei for Shabbos or Yom Tov which does not contain the prayer "Kadshenu
bemitsvothecho vethane chelkanu bethorothecho, sab'anu mituvecho,
vesamchanu bishuothecho, vetaher..."  The Rinat Yisrael siddur, compiled
under the auspices of the Ministry of Education here (and normally
reliable), has inserted the missing section before the phrase "Ki
beamecho Yisroel bocharto...".
  I have never been able to find either a good reason for the omission,
or a source for the emendation, and would be glad to hear from anyone
who has.

Roger Kingsley


From: David Neustadter <david@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:25:52 +0200
Subject: OU hashgacha in hebrew

I was wondering if anyone has any opinions or, better yet, conclusive
information, on the issue of the validity of an OU hashgacha found on a
hebrew label on a package in Israel.

In the past week I have come accross two such packages in the supermarket.
 Both products were produced in the USA.  One had no english label, only
a hebrew one, and it didn't have the standard 'under the authorization
of the chief rabbinate of Israel'; it just had a big OU symbol on it.
The other product had a K on the box, but the hebrew label had an OU
symbol, and said explicitely that the hashgacha on the box was to be
ignored, and that the product was under OU hashgacha.

My understanding is that in the USA, any product with an OU symbol is
assumed under OU hashgacha unless one hears otherwise.  This is based, I
assume, on the fact that the symbol is copyrighted and the OU makes
every effort to enforce the copyright.  I am wondering whether or not
that copyright applies in Israel, and if so, can and does the OU make
the neccessary effort to enforce it.

Any opinions or info?



From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher <neeri@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:36:41 +0100
Subject: Question about kosher slaughter

[This was forwarded to me, I figure someone here probably has info for
Matthias. Mod.]


I recently was handed a pamphlet from a rather militant animal
protection organization which has also made news as being rather
militantly anti-semitic.  Predictably, this pamphlet claimed that kosher
slaughter involved more suffering for the animal than non-kosher
slaughter. Since I vaguely remembered claims to the contrary, I tried to
research that question on the WWW, but failed to dig up any
material. The only reference I found was the following passage from the
s.c.j FAQ:

#   Kosher slaughter is more humane than
#   non-kosher slaughter, as it kills the animal in a painless fashion.
#   Although kosher slaughter does not kill the animal instantly, the
#   animal passes out from the sudden drop in cranial blood pressure and
#   dies in a minute or so. There is no pain.

Now my question: Would you happen to know about any scientific
literature on this topic (on-line or off-line) ?

Thanks for your help

Matthias Neeracher <neeri@...> http://err.ethz.ch/members/neeri.html
   "One fine day in my odd past..." -- Pixies, _Planet of Sound_


From: Shlomo H. Pick <F12013%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 16:19 O
Subject: Rav Baruch Ber and Shabbat Rosh Chodesh Mussaf

 In mail jewish 22:47 and then repeated again in 22:55 there was a story
concerning Rav Baruch Ber and Rav E. Preil.  Both stories stated that
Rav Boruch Ber was a rosh yeshiva at Yeshiva R. Yitzchak Elchanan (=
Y.U.).  I know that in 5688 (=1928-29) the year of the founding of the
college that R. Shimon Shkopp was the rosh ha- yeshiva after the Metiza
Ilui was suddenly niftar (died).  I have spoken with Rabbi
Prof. E. Rackmann concerning his year of study, that year under Rav
Shimon, who then learned nedarim.  I have yet to hear that R. Baruch Ber
was rosh yeshiva at RIETS, and hence, I would like documentation of
 In mail jewish 22:55 David Twersky asked concerning the Shabbat Rosh
Chodesh Mussaf.  I had heard the same question from my Rebbe, zt"l, the
late Rav Yerucham Gorelick, in 5731, and he quoted a midrash (I think it
was a yalkut shimoni and i would appreciate the source) that atid lavo
(in the messianic age), there will be an obligation of aliya leregel
(pilgramage to the Temple) on Shabbat Rosh Chodesh.  I hope I am
remembering this correctly, and would appreciate any confirmation from
midrashic or any other source.
 thank you
shlomo pick


From: <DaPr@...> (Yehudah Prero)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:28:24 -0500
Subject: Search for articles relating to Rav Moshe zt"l

I am trying to track down copies of some articles. One is an interview
of R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l from approx. 1970 that appeared in the New
York Times.  Another is an article that appeared in the Jewish Week
shortly after R' Moshe's death, written by Rabbi Rackman about R'
Moshe's "Derech HaP'sak."  The last one I am looking for is a response
to Rabbi Rackman's article that appeared in the Jewish Week in the form
of a "letter to the editor" written by Rabbi Nissan Alpert zt"l. If any
M-J readers have these articles at hand, please write to me at
<DaPr@...> as soon as you can.  

Thanks a lot- Yehudah Prero


From: <yossi@...> (Rabbi Yossi Chaikin)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 21:12:57 +2
Subject: Yehuda's Grandsons

> From: <EMPreil@...> (Elozor Preil)
> I was puzzled by something I noticed in this morning's laining (Vayigash).
> Among the seventy souls who came with Yaakov to Egypt were two grandsons
> of Yehuda, Chetzron and Chamul (sons of Peretz).  See Bereishis ch. 38
> where *after* the sale of Yosef, Yehuda leaves his brothers, marries,
> has three sons (Er, Onan, and Shelah), Er and Onan marry and die, Shelah
> grows up, Yehuda and Tamar have Peretz (and Zerach).  When Yosef was
> sold, he was 17; when his entire family came to Egypt he was 39 (30 when
> he first came before Paroh, 7 years of plenty + 2 years of
> famine). Thus, from the time Yehuda left his brothers after the sale of
> Yosef until Yehuda came to Egypt with two grandsons was only 22 years.
> Any explanations?

Refer to  Chezkuni on Bereishis 37,1. Approximate translation: 

"If you wonder ... how [in a space of 22 years] Yehuda's wife could give
birth to Er and Onan and Shelah... and then Tamar became pregnant and
had Peretz and Zorach and Peretz had Chetzron and Chamul.  The answer is
that earlier generations had children at the age of seven (cf. Sanhedrin
69,2) and this is the sequence of events as brought down in Seder Olam
(Chapter 2): Year 1 - Er was conceived and born Year 2 - Onan was
conceived and born Year 3 - Shelah was born Year 8 - Er married Tamar
(allowing seven years for him to be old enough) and he dies Year 9 -
Onan marries Tamar Year 10 - Shelah is now old enough to marry Tamar
Year 11 - Tamar realizes Shelah will not be given to her in marriage
Year 12 - Peretz and Zerach are conceived and born Year 19 - Peretz is
old enough to procreate Year 20 - Chetzron is conceived and born Year 21
- Chamul is born Year 22 - Chetzron, Chamul and co. go down to Egypt.

Rabbi Yossi Chaikin
Constantia Hebrew Congregation - Cape Town, South Africa
P.O.Box 47 - Plumstead - 7800
Telephone: +2721-75-2520

From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 18:53:08 IST
Subject: Yehuda's Grandsons

The Gemara - I believe in Sanhedrin although I don't have an exact cite -
discusses this and reaches the conclusion that each of Er and Onan and 
Peretz were about 7-8 years old at the time of their marriage.  
Therefore if you and assume not too large an age difference between Onan 
and Sheila, and that Tamar "waited" until Sheila was the same age as Er 
and Onan were when they married before she put on her disguise, then the 
fact that over the course of the remaining 14-15 years Yehuda could have 
fathered Peretz and Zerach, and that Peretz could have had two children 
is not all that surprising.  Given the Medrash that Rivka was married at 
the age of three, it seems that the teva (nature) at that time was to 
marry early and therefore the fact that Er and Onan and Peretz did so is 
not all that surprising.

I should add that there is a Medrash which states that Er was born two
years before Yosef was sold (it's brought down in Otzar Ishei HaTanach)
but that seems to contradict the Psukim in Breishis 38 IMHO.

-- Carl Sherer
 	Adina and Carl Sherer
 		You can reach us both at:


End of Volume 22 Issue 66