Volume 22 Number 78
                       Produced: Thu Jan 11 23:05:32 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Charedi and Dati
         [Carl Sherer]
Chareidi and Dati
         [Zvi Weiss]
Getting Along
         [Steve White]
Love your neighbor
         [D'n Russler]
Political Action and Halacha
Shmuel Cytryn and Involving US in Israeli Affairs
         [Michael J Broyde]
Wife Abuse
         [Miriam Rabinowitz]


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 1:09:43 IST
Subject: Charedi and Dati

Shlomo Pick writes:

>  In response to mail.jewish 22:70 the items by carl sherer con- cerning
> item #5 that chareidim are becoming the underclass of israeli society,
> suffering discrimination in much the same way that arabs do - one must
> be "yotzei zava" and this keeps chareidim out- side the job market.
>  I don't understand this statememt or arguement.  To keep out of the
> army, chareidim, who do stay out, claim that toratum umatum, that their
> only and sole "job" is studying Torah.  Otherwise they are subject to
> the draft like every other Israeli citizen - they just have a deferrment
> until they announce that they have stopped learning full time.  Then
> usually they are drafted for a short period and/or to military reserve
> duty.  If they leave their full time torah study to look for a job or to
> work at one, they are basically breaking the law by not first fulfilling
> their civic duty of military service.  in fact, every once and awhile,
> there is a computer check of who is a yeshiva student and has a
> deferment and yet has national insurance or income tax paid to his
> having a regular job. besides the chillul hashem encounted, he is also
> drafted and/or fined.
>  There may be a tiny minority of chareidim who leave the yeshivot and
> due to many children and/or other technicalities have not been drafted
> and the statement or argument may apply, but certainly not in the
> numbers implied by comparison to arabs.  those numbers can only be
> reached by the above-mentioned attempt to break the law and not serve in
> the army and yet to benefit from a regular paying job.  

I suspect that it's a bit more common than you think, and given that Arabs
are highly unlikely to read the want ads in the Hebrew newspapers I can't 
imagine who else the "bogrei tzava" (army graduates) only notices could be 
directed at excluding.  Except for security guard positions army service
doesn't strike me as a job-related qualification!

The army has reached the conclusion that they have more people coming in 
than they can reasonably handle and therefore they have started not taking
people they would have taken (or been interested in taking) in the past.
This includes adult olim (who if they are taken at all are taken for four
months and in many cases only for six days) and yeshiva students who might
otherwise have gone "shlav bet" (second stage - generally for people entering
the army beyond the age of 23).  Thus students who leave the Yeshivas may
in fact legally be in the job market (and often are) without having served
in the army.

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:50:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Chareidi and Dati

> From: Shlomo H. Pick <F12013%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
>   Thus I must add, the claim that bnei brak is the poorest city in
> Israel is probably true, but it is matter of choice - if people want
> to study torah and not work, then they must expect to be poor.  it
> cannot be compared to other towns, where people want to work and
> expect to work but there are no job openings such as in ofakim.

 While the Pirkei Avot indeed states that one who *begins* the study of
Torah should expect a difficult life style, It is not at all clear that
OTHERS should placidly state that those who devote themselves to Torah
should "expect" to be poor...  At least, I think that it would be worth
while discussing with ANY of the current Poskim whether that is a proper
outlook for ANY Ben Torah to have.

>  I presume that the next step in all this is must I be obligated to
> support yeshiva students who voluntarally study and defer the army.  to
> be honest, i really don't think so, and base my argument on Mai- monides
> at the end of Hilchot shmitah ve-yovel.  If you want to study Torah and
> live on bread and water, that's your business, not mine. If I want to
> support you, that's my prerogative, not an obligation by the state. i
> also refer to Maimonides's statements in hilchot talmud torah 3:10 and
> in the peirush hamishnayot 4:7 on the words of R. Zadok. And if i have
> to add, then "Kim lee kedivrei ha-Rambam!" (= I hold the Rambam's
> position") and you cannot take money from my possession for this
> oppossing view.

 While the Rambam certainly emphasized the importance of not making a
"living" by Torah study, I would like to remind all that (a) this view
is somewhat countered by the approach of Chachmei Ashkenaz -- unless Mr.
Pick is a Sephadi, it may be questionable for him to adopt this as
*normative* -- I would strongly urge that he ask a Shaila before he
claims "Kim Lee Kedivrei Rambam"....;
 (b) that the Rambam refers to the one who STUDIES... The Rambam DOES
NOT discuss here one who may wish to SUPPORT such Torah Study.  On the
contrary, from the Talmudic discussions re Yissachar/Zevulon and
Shimon/Azarya relationships, it appears that it WAS a highly proper
approach to support those who study Torah.  Further support can be found
if one refers to the Netziv's discussion re Aser/T'aser (in his
additional footnotes) where he cites Talmudic statements that
specifically refer to the "custom" of the "merchant" supporting the one
who studies Torah.  Further discussion is also in the Netziv when he
discusses the "Teruma" that was taken off and given to the Kohen and
Leviim after the War with Midian (end of Bamidbar).  All of these
sources would appear to inidcate that it is indeed praiseworthy to
support those who "take off" to study Torah.  In fact, from the Netziv's
discussio in Bamidbar, it appears (unlike the other sources where it is
seen to be more clearly voluntary) that there may be some obligatory
aspect here.



From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 21:30:52 -0500
Subject: Getting Along

In  #77, <MSGraphics@...> (Linda Levi) writes:
>In America- (with a few exceptions in NY)- this spirit (of Orthodox
>unity) is regularly encouraged by many of our gedolim. Sometimes we see
>each other as elitists and recognize only the problems- but - take
>heart- I've seen several out-of-town communities that are succeeding and
>where room for optimism remains.  

I agree, and I think NY is a huge and sad exception.  There are so many
Jews in NY -- even so many frum Jews in NY -- that people aren't willing
to work together.  Almost anywhere else you can think of -- even as
close to NY as Highland Park/Edison, NJ, but certainly as you get
farther away, people intuitively understand that they must work
together, because there aren't enough of them to work separately.  On a
world-scale perspective, that's true of NY and Israel, too, but it's
less intuitive, and sadly, people just don't get it.

So let's help everyone get it!  Got it?
Steve White


From: D'n Russler <d_n@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:15:27 +0300 (IST)
Subject: Re: Love your neighbor

> From: <MSGraphics@...> (Linda Levi)
> Carl and Adina's posting makes me (and I'm sure most of us) very
> sad. This level of categorization in Israel- and the way charedi and
> mizrachi camps disparage each other is far worse than I'd imagined. I
> remember having a problem with not fitting into any of the "boxes" many
> years ago, when I was considering aliya, and discarding the idea- mostly
> because of how uncomfortable I felt about this. Sounds much worse now.

It's always bothered me, and one of the keypoints of my Rav's Derech is
DAVKA to break this stereotyping.  We are haredi in outlook (we do NOT
support the State while living within its geographical bounds), but most
of us (including the Rav) wear (large) knitted kipot and jeans or other
non-Black clothing (note capital "B").

> I'm not a spokesperson for "multi-denominational achdus".  I find that
> some categorization IS necessary- mostly when it comes to dating and
> making shidduchim and choosing schools- we each have the right to feel
> good about our differences, choose our own roads, and use our unique
> attributes for the good of Clal Yisroel.

I agree with the sense of this paragraph, but would go further to say that
there's nothing wrong in being such a spokesperson: *WE* are.

> But we CAN say "I'm a little different from my neighbor when it comes to
> lifestyle and hashkafa- but we still work together and respect each
> other, and as long as we're all trying to serve Hashem the best way we
> can, we're on the same team." The Torah instructs all shomri mitzvos to
> have this attitude.  (I won't go so far to say that we must have that
> attitude about all people or even all Jews- though I know many disagree
> with me on that...)

This paragraph is what REALLY prompted me to respond. I believe you're very
much mistaken in this aspect.

 1) The Torah commands ALL Jews to follow mitzvot, whether we do
    so or not,
 2) It is ALSO an assay m'doreyta (positive Torah-written
    commandment) to love ALL Jews, regardless of their deeds.

At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I may mention that there are
many -- no-kipah, or knitted, or streimel -- who, although they appear
to be Jews, aren't really -- they're Erev Rav. Although NO ONE CAN POINT
A FINGER AT A SPECIFICNY PERSON and say "(s)he's Erev Rav", many
Achronim (the Gr'a in Kol HaTur, Baal HaTanya, R. Nahman, The Hida, the
RaSHaSH), not to mention Rav Avraham Yitzhak Kook zatz"l wrote that the
Erev Rav are to be the majority of what appears to be jews in the
generation just before Moshiah -- may he come speedily, NOW!

> In America- (with a few exceptions in NY)-

.... yeah, do *I* remember Boro Park!

> ... this spirit (of Orthodox
> unity) is regularly encouraged by many of our gedolim.

Again, I believe it's got to be Jewish Unity, not necessarily Ortho Unity.

> Sometimes we see
> each other as elitists and recognize only the problems- but - take
> heart- I've seen several out-of-town communities that are succeeding and
> where room for optimism remains.  

There are many, many bright spots here, too. OPEN INVITATION: when in
Israel, give me a call, stay by us for a Shabbat. I do the cooking, so
my lovely wife shouldn't mind last-minute notice...

     972-9-922-223 (@ work, TTR Technologies Ltd. All views expressed
     here are my own and do NOT necessarily reflect the views of TTR
     or its management)

      /-----\                   D'n Russler


From: <RACHMIEL@...> (Rachmiel)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:50:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Political Action and Halacha

Aren't there some halachic concerns about involving secular authorities
in disputes between Jews?  I'm not sure how these would apply to recent
postings about political prisoners, but it would be interesting to read
about the halachic angles here.  Particularly if one were to involve the
U.S. government in a situation within Israel it seems like this might
cause more problems than it solves.  Obviously this is a complex
situation.  Maybe halachic sources would cast more light on it.


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:44:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Shmuel Cytryn and Involving US in Israeli Affairs

On a recent Mail-Jewish announcement, one writer wrote about the plight 

> Shmuel Cytryn, an American citizen, has been held by Israeli authorities
> without charge or due process of law since December 4, 1995.

He continued:

> It is unacceptable that in a democracy a person should be arrested and
> imprisoned without being charged. We raise our voices in indignant
> protest and demand that Shmuel Cytryn either be charged with a crime or
> immediately freed. This is an issue of human rights, not politics.

	After telling us that there is much support for Shmuel Cytryn's 
plight and that many famous Israeli human rights supporters validate the 
claim of abuse, the writer continues and tell us how to protest this 
wrong.  He states:

> Contact your local Representatives and Senators. As Shmuel is a US
> citizen whose rights are being flagrantly violated, American politicians
> can be asked to exert pressure on Israeli government officials to
> explain why a man who has not been charged with any crime is being
> imprisoned.


> Contact Mr. James Grey at the US Embassy in Tel-Aviv at (011-972)
> 3-519-7524. Ask him to please intercede on behalf of an American citizen
> whose human rights are being violated. If Mr. Grey receives many phone
> calls concerning the case of Shmuel Cytryn, it will do wonders. 

To be honest, I question if it is halachicly proper to adopt a policy of
encouraging the United States government to interfere in the internal
workings of the Israeli government.  It smells of a form of mesirah, and
ought not be done without a considerable amount of forethought.
	I write this with absolutely no idea of whether Mr. Cytryn is
innocent or guilty, deserves imprisonment without trial (administrative
detention is legal in Israel, and frequently used in cases of security
threats) or not.
	However, I do not believe that the American Jewish community
should contact its Senators and Representatives or the US embassador to
Israel and protest the conduct of the Israeli government.

Rabbi Michael Broyde   


From: <miriam@...> (Miriam Rabinowitz)
Date: 10 Jan 1996  11:52 EST
Subject: Wife Abuse

On the subject of wife abuse, Dvora Tepper of Hadassah Medical Center,

"I had the occasion to query a "mikveh lady" about signs of abuse on her
customers. She told me that she has wondered about that as she has
noticed women with belt welts on their backs and other signs of abuse,
but did not know what to do about it."

Devorah goes on to suggest a multidiciplinary seminar given by the
rabbinical authorities.

I'd like to second the motion and add the following.  I've had occasion
to discuss this issue with Phyllis Kuhr (formerly of the Rockland Family
Shelter), Rebbetzin Weinberg of Baltimore, Nechama Wolfson of the Shalom
Task Force (see their add every week on page 8 of the Jewish Press under
the Aguna-Chained column), and Rebbetzin Goldie Twerski A"H (wife of
Rabbi Abraham Twerski, M.D.).  What I've learned is that many mikvah
ladies are unaware of the magnitude of this problem because they don't
recognize the bruises as signs of abuse.  The woman that Devorah Tepper
spoke with is one of very few mikvah ladies who knew what she was
looking at.  These women need training not only on what to do if they
spot signs of abuse, but how to spot it in the first place.

Most rabinical authorities are unware of the magnitude of this problem,
too.  And even those who are aware don't always know how to properly
handle it.

We need more than just a seminar for mikvah ladies.  We need to educate
our rabbincal authorities as well as our young women who are growing up
and will be getting married within the next few years.  And it wouldn't
hurt to educate young men either.

The Shalom Task Force, a resource center on the subject of wife abuse
within the Jewish Community, is doing work in these areas.  If you would
like to get involved, you can contact them at 718-337-3700.

Miriam Z. Rabinowitz


End of Volume 22 Issue 78