Volume 23 Number 16
                       Produced: Wed Feb 14  5:34:42 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

120 years
         [Mordechai Torczyner]
1948 (vol 22 #97)
         [Neil Parks]
Art and Halacha
         [Adina Gerver]
Dinosaurs and Chinuch
         [Mike Gerver]
Dinosaurs and the Tifferes Yisroel
         [Joe Goldstein]
Existance of Dinosaurs
         [Yosey Goldstein]
Issues of Ribis
         [Roger Kingsley]
Judaism vs. Islam
         [Shmuel Jablon]
reference to Rabbi Meir ben Shmuel
         [Mike Paneth]
Second call for Purim torah help
         [Sam Saal]
         [Cheryl Hall]
Twin Daughters
         [Moishe Kimelman]
Twin daughters in Tanach (2)
         [Yosey Goldstein, Al Silberman]
Twin Daughters in Tanach
         [Aryeh Frimer]


From: Mordechai Torczyner <mat6263@...>
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:10:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 120 years

>Danny Skaist writes:

> The gemorrah in tractate Megilla asks, "Moshe min hatorah minayin" [from
> where in the torah do we know about Moshe]. It brings this pasuk, "he is
> still but flesh and their days shall be 120 (6:3)".  So the connection
> between this pasuk and Moshe is sanctioned and ancient.

	I hope no one thought, Gd forbid, that I intended to in any way 
question the reference to Moshe Rabbeinu in that pasuk, the Gemara in 
Megillah being an obvious source for it. Further, I have no claims 
against anyone who chooses to use the "Until 120" blessing. My only 
question is whether anyone has a source for the 120 LIMIT, as neither 
that pasuk and its Gemara, nor the Gemara in Sotah which is referred to 
by Rashi in Parshas Veyelech (see my original post) seem to indicate any 
such limit.
					Mordechai Torczyner


From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 12:37:13 EDT
Subject: Re: 1948 (vol 22 #97)

On Thu, 18 Jan 96 01:18:47 EST, 
Jonathan Katz  <frisch1@...> wrote:
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but this still leaves one day of Pesach which
>still _doesn't_ point to another significant day on a calendar. 

First day (aleph) points to (tav) Tisha B'av
2nd day (beis) points to (shin) Shavuos
3rd day (gimmel) points to (resh) Rosh Hashana
4th day (daled)  "   "  (koof) Kriat Hatorah (Simchas Torah outside Eretz)
5th day (hey)           (tzade) Tzom (fast--Yom Kippur)
6th day (vav)           (pay) preceding Purim
7th day (zayin)         (ayin) Atzmaut

Bit of a stretch, perhaps, but that's the way I learned it from Rabbi 
Ephraim Nisenbaum of Jewish Learning Connection

(I only learned the list of days from him.  The idea that Ha-Shem reserved 
the day of Atzmaut for us is my own.)

     NEIL PARKS  Beachwood, Ohio    mailto://<nparks@...>


From: <adina.gerver@...> (Adina Gerver)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:59:49 GMT
Subject: Art and Halacha

I am looking for sources on art and halacha, especially regarding
drawings, paintings, and sculptures created for aesthetic purposes. I
assume that art used for hiddur mitzva (beautification of a mitzva) is
not a problem.

 I have heard that the prohibition against creating images is from the
pasuk in Yitro, "Lo ta'asoon iti elohei kesef vi'elohei zahav" ("Do not
make with Me gods of silver and gods of gold").
 How does the gemara get from a prohibition that seems to be against
making idols to a prohibition against creating any 3-D images, even if
they will not be worshipped? Does anyone know where this gemara is?  Is
the prohibition against making 3-D images for decorative purposes a
di'orayta (from the Torah)? In terms of punishment, how does it compare
to making idols?
 Is there an additional prohibition against creating 2-dimensional
 Is a distinction made between creating, buying, and receiving art,
assuming that it was not created for avoda zara (idol worship)?  Does
anyone know of sources about making one's living from the creation of
decorative (non-functional) art?
 Is there even a Jewish concept of art for aesthetic purposes?

Answers to any of these questions, preferably with sources, would be
greatly appreciated.

Adina Gerver


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 8:14:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Dinosaurs and Chinuch

Mordechai Perlman writes, in v23n09:
> However, I'm not certain that you want to explain to your child the
> concepts of there being worlds before this one and we're only the fourth
> cycle of seven cycles of 7000 years each.

If you decide you do want to explain these concepts to your child, I
just came across a delightful book for doing it, "And Then There Were
Dinosaurs" by Sari Steinberg (Yellow Brick Road Press, Ltd., St. Helier,
New Jersey, 1993). My wife borrowed it from Rabbi Avraham and Laya
Witty, whose son goes to the pre-school where she teaches. It uses
colorful clay figures to tell a tale of dinosaurs, originally all
vegetarians (Tyrannosaurus uses his sharp teeth to tear the tough bark
off trees), who, because of greed and selfishness, end up fighting and
eating each other and ultimately are destroyed. There are a couple of
things I could quibble about. They have one dinosaur, early in the age
of dinosaurs, eating berries, even though flowering plants did not
appear until near the end of the Mesozoic era. And after the world of
dinosaurs is destroyed, the land is lifeless until man is created,
thereby relegating to the status of myth all those titanotheres,
baluchatheria, eohippi (eohippoi?), and other early mammals that I
enjoyed reading about so much when I was a kid.

Still, it's a beautiful book, and would probably melt the heart of an
obstinate school official more than any number of quotes from the Netziv
or Rav Kook. And any teacher using this book in class would have to
admit that at least one of the following statements is true: 1)
Dinosaurs really existed. 2) Not every midrash is to be taken literally.

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


From: Joe Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 21:15:36 EST
Subject: Dinosaurs and the Tifferes Yisroel

Rabbi Micha Berger has asked several very valid questions on the
Tifferes Yisroel's explanation of the Fossils and other scientific finds
that seem to contradict creation.

    I would just like to add something my Chavrusa told me in the name
of Reb Dovid Kronglass Zatzal the Mashgiach of Ner Yisroel in Baltimore.
One Bochur asked him, one friday night, about evolution. One of the
bochurim mentioned the Tifferes Yisroel's approach. Reb Dovid was very
sharp in his objection to the T"Y's explanation. He said "While it is
true that in Sifrei Kabbola it is said that the Ribbono shel Olom will
create 7 worlds of 7,00 years duration. They, the sifrei Kabbalah also
say that this is the FIRST of those worlds| not the fourth" He was
adamantly against this shitta as proposed by the Tifferes Yisroel.  (I
am sorry but I do not remember if he offered his own approach .  think
he offered up the Malbim)

Joe Goldstein (EXT 444)


From: Yosey Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 21:06:01 EST
Subject: Existance of Dinosaurs

  David Charlap writes: " while i'm not about to get involved in the
'age of the universe' debate, I would like to point out that the
existance of dinosaurs is explicitly mentioned in the Torah: On the
fifth day of creation (Genesis 1, 20-23), God created the 'taninim
gedolim', which JPS translates as 'great sea monsters'. Sounds a lot
like dinosaurs to me."

     The problem with the most reliable translations, (Which I am not
sure JPS is), is: The translators use proper dictionary definitions.
However, when we read the word we place our own non-dictionary
definition on the word.  Assuming that the translation of "great sea
monsters" is valid for "Taninim Gedolim" one does not HAVE to assume it
means dinosaurs. It could mean Whales or other large sea animals. In
truth the translator could have been referring to the Leviathan fish.
(See Rashi in Chumash) Which is larger than any fish we have seen in the

      As anyplace in Torah one must not approach the Torah with any
preconceived notions. One must see what the Torah is telling us not try
to put OUR thoughts into the Torah.



From: Roger Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Subject: Re: Issues of Ribis

   I am grateful to Jeff Mandin (in V23#11) and David Kramer (in V22#97)
for drawing the reference in YD 160:9 to my attention.  Jeff Mandin sums
it up well:

> Assisting in return for assistance, then, is not problematic as long 
> as  the work exchanged is of similar type and difficulty.  The 
> mishna goes on to prohibit exchange of work in one season for 
> the type of work in a season when the labor is more difficult.

    I would just add that the Prisha (on the Tur in YD 160) emphasises
the Tur's requirement that to incur an issur, the harder work must be
done "after time", and specifically states that even "repayment" by
harder work would be allowed if done at once, so that there is no
benefit from a delay.  I don't think we have to worry too much about
helping each other with succahs, at least in the same year.

Roger Kingsley


From: <ShmuelAJ@...> (Shmuel Jablon)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:23:43 -0500
Subject: Judaism vs. Islam

Perhaps the would-be apostate from Judaism should read THE KUZARI, the
classic dialogue by R. Yehuda haLevi.  There are a number of English
By the way, I know that the talmidim of Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook zt"l and his
talmid muvhak Rav Shlomo Aviner shlit"a view this as a crucial book for
strengthening and deepening our emunah in Hashem (even if we are not r"l
considering leaving).

Shmuel Jablon


From: Mike Paneth <mikep@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:20:20 +-1100
Subject: reference to Rabbi Meir ben Shmuel

My daughter in year 9 has a project to provide a biography on Rabbi Meir
Ben Shmuel the son in law of Rashi.

Does anyone have a good reference apart from the usual such as Seder
Hadoros and encyclopedia Judaica?

Mike Paneth
Melbourne, Australia


From: Sam Saal <saal@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:39:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Second call for Purim torah help

Dear mail.jewish Purim Torah scholars

Perry Zamek <jmarksmn@...>, a mail.jewish reader came up with
the following topic for the Purim edition. I've already got some work
done but beleive the readership would yield great accomplices.  Care to
put your minds to it?

He wrote:
"The reader folds the megillah like an iggeret, but the congregants need not
do so."

What happens if the Megilla refuses to stay folded? An Origami folding
course for Megilla readers?

Then I suggested...
> This has a lot of potential. Would you care to work with me to develop a
> course curriculum? How about a major - including requisite related
> courses?

Please send suggestions to me ASAP and I will edit and produce this
important catalogue.

Sam Saal       <saal@...>
Vayiphtach HaShem et Peah haAtone


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 05:24:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Tehillim

I've had this question regarding the trope or cantillation marks in
Tehillim. I read the Enc. Judaica article, that indicated they are
unknown, but the article also gave me the impression that are tradition
melodies. Is there a set traditional "chant" for reading Tehillim
indepently?  I know a lot of different melodies within services etc, but
I would like to read daily sections of Tehillim and assumed there is a
tune that should be used.

Any info would be appreciated.

Cheryl <CHERYLHALL@...> Long Beach CA USA


From: Moishe Kimelman <kimel@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:15:29 +1000
Subject: Twin Daughters

In # 13 Gedaliah Freidenberg asked :
>Does anyone know of any mention of twin daughters in Tanach?  Perhaps
>another Torah source (gemorrah, etc.)?

R Chiyah had both twin sons and twin daughters named Pazi and Tavi (see
Yevamos bottom of 65b, top of 66 a).


From: Yosey Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 09:03:19 EST
Subject: Twin daughters in Tanach

A poster asked:
> Does anyone know of any mention of twin daughters in Tanach? Perhaps
> another Torah source (Gemorrah, etc.)?

  There is a Medrash that says that Rochel and Leah were twin sisters, I
think it is the Seder Olam. It says Rochel and leah were born on the day
that Yaakov received the Brochos from Yitzchok. This makes the
assumption that "the older son, (Aisov) will marry the older daughter
(Leah) and the younger daughter (Rochel) will marry the younger son


From: <asilberman@...> (Al Silberman)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:53:30 -0500
Subject: Twin daughters in Tanach

In MJ v23n13 Gedaliah Friedenberg (revealed in MJ v23n15 to have just
become a Choson - Mazel Tov!) writes:

>Does anyone know of any mention of twin daughters in Tanach?  Perhaps
>another Torah source (gemorrah, etc.)?

In Yevomos 65b referring to the children of R'Chiya and his wife Yehudis
"Judah and Hezekiah were twin brothers and Pazi and Tawi twin sisters".

In Bereishis Rabbah 22:
"R' Yehoshua Ben Korcha said two went up to bed and seven descended; Cain
and his twin sister and Abel and his two twin sisters."

From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 15:12 O
Subject: Twin Daughters in Tanach

According to the Seder Olam, Rachel and Leah were twin sisters.


End of Volume 23 Issue 16