Volume 23 Number 45
                       Produced: Sat Mar 16 22:25:08 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A 'gift' of chametz
         [Josh Wise]
Bugs in Food
         [Israel Rosenfeld]
Chametz in the Mail
         [Alana Suskin]
Chametz in the mailbox.
         [Perry Zamek]
Chometz in the mailbox
         [Rafael Salasnik]
Hydroponic lettuce
         [Gedaliah Friedenberg]
Israeli produce and bugs
         [Eli Turkel]
Purim Sheyni
         [Meylekh Viswanath]
         [Jonathan Jacobson]


From: Josh Wise <jdwise@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:46:24 EST
Subject: A 'gift' of chametz

On the issue of receiving chametz in the mail on Pesach,
David Charlap asks:
> I'm sure someone will correct me, but I didn't think an object that
> someone gives you becomes yours until you actually take posession of it.

A kinyan chatzer (lit.: a transaction of a domain) can occur without the
knowledge of the owner. As another reader pointed out, in the case in
Baltimore where chametz arrived on Pesach, the community was told to
specifically have in mind NOT to accept ownership of the
chametz. Without this, like it or not, you become the owner of the

On a similar note, as happenned to my family once several years ago, a
guest that came to our home for seder brought a bottle of wine as a
token of appreciation. Unfortunately, the guest did not realize that it
was not Kosher L'Pesach. We subtly put the bottle of wine outside, and
had in mind not to accept ownership of it.

Josh Wise


From: <iir@...> (Israel Rosenfeld)
Date: Thu,  14 Mar 96 14:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Bugs in Food

>From: <David_Hollander@...> (David Hollander)
>   My Rav told me that since it is questionable what blessing to say
>before eating hydroponic romaine lettuce, one should say Shehakol.
>Since some hold the maror (bitter herbs) should be HoAdama (blessing for
>vegetables grown in the ground) he did not advise using it for maror.

HR"HG Pinchas Frankel, Rav of Unsdorf, Jerusalem told me that it is
preferable to use Gush Katif lettuce instead of the horseradish I was
using.  I thank him for his psak to this day.  It is also recommended by
all the Haredi hashgachos I've seen.

Kosher and Happy Pesach.



From: Alana Suskin <alanacat@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:58:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Chametz in the Mail

I don't know if this is acceptable, but this is what I would do. I 
receive my mail at a post-office box, and I would simply ask the folks at 
the post office to hold the package for me until after pesach, since it 
would be  unlikely to fit in the PO box itself, and it would be like 
ordering something and having it at the store but not picking it up, so 
you don't actually own it yet. Of course, check with your Local Ordained 

Alana Suskin,
Mitnaggedet Mama


From: <jerusalem@...> (Perry Zamek)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:13:41 +0200
Subject: Chametz in the mailbox.

David Charlap writes:

>I'm sure someone will correct me, but I didn't think an object that
>someone gives you becomes yours until you actually take posession of it.
>In the case of a box of cookies, this would be when you pick it up.
>I would think that if you leave it in the mailbox, without picking it
>up, then the box would remain in the halachic domain of the sender.

1. The question arises whether the mailbox constitutes "hatzer
hamishtameret" (a protected courtyard), which can "acquire" on behalf of
the owner without his knowledge. The problem would be worse in places
like England, where the mail is put through a slit in the door, and
actually enters the house, which would certainly be considered "hatzer".

>Now this, may cause a different problem if the sender is Jewish - now
>there's a piece of chametz that he knows about, owns, and can't destroy.

2. Even if the receipient doesn't acquire the chametz, the sender will
also *not* own it, provided the sender carried out the bitul
(nullification) of chametz before Pesach. In that case the chametz is
hefker (ownerless).

This is why the bitul has to be recited in a language that one
understands.  It is not a mere formula, but a legally binding statement.

 From a minimalistic point of view, bitul would be sufficient for all
chametz; however, the reason we search for, and remove, chametz before
Pesach is becuase we may come across some chametz during Pesach, forget
that it is forbidden, pick it up (thereby re-acquiring it) and eat it,
thereby transgressing both the ownership and eating prohibitions.

Wishing all a happy Pesach (the kashrut is assumed :-) ).

Perry Zamek   | A Jew should live his life in such a way
Peretz ben    | that people can say of him: "There goes
Avraham       | a living Kiddush Hashem".


From: Rafael Salasnik <rafi@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:12:34 +0000
Subject: Chometz in the mailbox

>regarding Chometz that arrives in
>the mail after the time it is forbidden for a Jew to own Chometz, I
>remember a few years ago in Baltimore, MD. the entire Community came
>home from shul Yom Tov morning to find samples of Crispy Wheats and
>Raisins sitting in their mailboxes.  The local prominent Rabbonim
>reacted immediately and word was spread throughout shuls that all should
>have in mind to not make a kinyan- transfer of ownership, and that the
>samples should be left in the mailboxes for the remainder of Pesach,
>afterwhich they were to be burned.
>Gideon Miller

there was a similar situation in Stamford Hill, London a few years ago
where, if I recall correctly they threw them into the street (can't
remember which day it was). The promoters must have wondered what the
Jews had against their particular product ;)

Most people here do not have mailboxes, the mail falls straight into the



From: Gedaliah Friedenberg <gedaliah@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:45:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Hydroponic lettuce
Newsgroups: shamash.mail-jewish

In v23n42 <David_Hollander@...> (David Hollander) writes:

>   My Rav told me that since it is questionable what blessing to say
>before eating hydroponic romaine lettuce, one should say Shehakol.
>Since some hold the maror (bitter herbs) should be HoAdama (blessing for
>vegetables grown in the ground) he did not advise using it for maror.

The packaged "kosher" lettuce which we get in Monsey (NY) is essentially
hydroponic.  The lettuce is grown in sand which is rich with the
hydroponic liquid in a sealed environment.  This sand is used
specifically to avoid the issue of Shehakol/Ha-adama.  The package
states this clearly, and we make a ha-adama on it.  The lettuce still
needs to be rinsed because of sand on the leaves, not because of bugs.

I do not have a package handy, so I cannot name the brand or the
hashgacha.  But, I am pretty certain that it is imported from Israel.

Gedaliah Friedenberg


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:20:38 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Israeli produce and bugs

    David Hollander writes

>>    My Rav told me that since it is questionable what blessing to say
>> before eating hydroponic romaine lettuce, one should say Shehakol.
>> Since some hold the maror (bitter herbs) should be HoAdama (blessing for
>> vegetables grown in the ground) he did not advise using it for maror

    The "bug-free" vegetables grown in Israel are grown in dirt and are
not hydroponics. While hydroponics was once considered it seems not to
have survived. As David Mescheloff states they are grown in areas where
the entire dirt area is precleaned to remove bugs then nets are put
around to prevent other bugs from entering. The blessing on any such
vegetables are the standard blessings. I have been told that Rav Wosner
from Bnei-Brak paskened that one should wash off these vegetables and
then there is no need for further examination.

Eli Turkel


From: Meylekh Viswanath <viswanat@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:36:56 -0500
Subject: Purim Sheyni

Moshe Sokolov writes:
>Also by the by--according a to a little known Gaonic responsum (written
>by a little known Gaon), Manhattan is entitled to celebrate Purim Sheini
>on 21-22 Adar because it has a Wall Street. Same for anyplace which can
>be seen from Manhattan (including from the Top of the Towers, with a
>telescope), or which is within local phone call range of Manhattan on
>days when the visibility is limited by smog.

I would like to point out that Moshe's Gaon is being too makhmir.  Actually,
his psak for Manhattan is now irrelevant for the following reason:
Any place in the United States can celebrate Purim Sheyni!

We all know that it is a makhloykes Rav and Shmuel, as to whether a
walled city must have been walled during the times of Yehoshua or
currently walled in order to be able to celebrate Purim Sheyni.
According to the man d'omar that holds that a city need only be
currently walled, the argument goes as follows:

Pat Buchanan, while he may not win the Republican nomination, and the
Presidency this year, is certain to win it soon.  After all, which
right-thinking American citizen wouldn't want to keep out the unwashed
Asian and Latino hordes (and only Buchanan can guarantee that!)?  That
being the case, and knowing as we do, that if Buchanan were to become
President, he would build a wall along the US-Canada border and the
US-Mexico border, we have a clear application of the principle 'koysel
ha-omeyd lehibbanos kebanuy dami.'


Meylekh Viswanath
P.V. Viswanath     Voice: (914) 773-3906  Fax: (914) 773-3920
Lubin School of Business, Pace University, 861 Bedford Rd., Pleasantville,
NY 10570
Email: <viswanat@...>
WWW: http://library.pace.edu/~viswanat


From: <JonJ1@...> (Jonathan Jacobson)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 19:23:46 -0500
Subject: Starbuck's

Concerning the recent discussions on Starbuck's - a few points:

- The only product of Starbuck's under the supervision of the OU are the
coffee beans.  The drinks made in store are not under the OU's supervision.
 This is important to know since there are certain drinks made in the stores
which are actually made out of mixes, not just coffee.

- Starbuck's does not make "flavored" coffee beans.  You can buy a cup of
coffee in the store and they will add a flavor for you if request it.  As
mentioned, in previous postings, you are at your own risk with these
flavorings.  Here in Seattle, they offer Torinos flavorings which are under
the OU.

- The only coffee beans of Starbuck's which are Kosher for Pesach are the
ones that come in the "Flavor Pack" bags and marked OU-P.  You should not
have them grind the beans for you in the store if you are planning on using
them for Pesach.  

Jonathan Jacobson


End of Volume 23 Issue 45