Volume 23 Number 55
                       Produced: Tue Mar 26 23:18:28 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Additions to Haggadot
         [Schwartz Adam]
cat food for Pesach 5756
         [Michael R. Stein]
         [Debbie Klein]
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Havdalah and Overflowing wine
         [Moshe Hacker]
Kiddush by Non-Observant person
         [Jerrold Landau]
Kiddush on Shabbat by non-religious Jew
         [Alan and Sharon Silver]
Korban Pesach bazman ha'zeh
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Kosher l'Pesach "Pasta" and Kitniyot
         [Janice Gelb]
Mazal Tov!
         [Avi Feldblum]
Naming Ceremony for Girls
         [Rabbi Yaakov Shemaria]
Non-Use of Certain Biblical Names
         [Sholom Parnes]
Seder suggestions?
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]


From: Schwartz Adam <adams@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:22:04 +0300
Subject: Additions to Haggadot

A hiloni guy at work asked me about haggadot and I'm trying to get and
answer for him.  I was curious if anyone knew anything about using
haggadot that make mention of current events.  Are there those who
prohibit use of these haggadot?  Based on changing the 'matbea' of the
haddagah?  (at there's no bracha of "al mitzvat maggid..." to worry

i'm not talking about the ones that remove all mention of GD's name, and
all brachot, but about the ones that mention the Holocaust at "ela
shebkhol dor vador..."  Or ones that mention the mass salvation-
immigration of russian and ethiopian jewery at an appropriate place.

He says he has a haggadah that has everything, "just like
'R. Steinsaltz' with some extra paragraphs, nothing missing".  he plans
to use it and i was curious if any posek has dealt with this.  At
certain points in the haggadah, seder conversation is led toward
discussion of current events anyway.  The question is if you may use a
haggadah that provides you a with a canned, standard little piece to say
about a current events topic.



From: Michael R. Stein <mike@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:19:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: cat food for Pesach 5756

This morning I received a list of cat foods that can be used this Pesach
(for feeding cats!) from the Chicago Rabbinical Council; their source
was the Baltimore Va'ad. Since the list was dictated over the phone, I
may have slightly garbled some of the names; my experience in the past
is that there is no problem recognizing what was meant once in the

Friskies: Beef and Liver; Classic Seafood; Country Style; Elegant
Entree; Mixed Grill; Ocean Whitefish and Tuna; Salmon; Turkey and

Fancy Feast: Beef and Chicken; Beef and Liver; Cod, Sole and Shrimp;
Flaked Fish and Shrimp; Flaked Ocean Fish; Gourmet Chicken; Savory
Salmon; Seafood.

Chag kasher v'sameach --

Michael R. Stein					  <mike@...>
Department of Mathematics, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 60208-2730
voice: 847/491-5524		NOTE NEW AREA CODE	fax:847/491-8906

[But what about Goldfish? What should I feed them over pesach? Mod.]


From: Debbie Klein <dklein@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 16:59:31 -0500
Subject: Cloning

At work last week, we had a discussion about animal cloning.  There was
some disagreement about how complex the most complex cloned animal was.
Someone thought it was a mouse, someone else said frog, ...  It turns
out that some scientists in Edinburgh just cloned some Welsh lambs.
They cultured cells from an embryo then fused the cell nuclei into
unfertilised eggs, each of which had its nucleus removed.  They got 5
identical lambs out of it.  Two lived.

A couple of people asked me what the Halachic view is on this.  If it is
for the purposes of increased food supply, is it assur (prohibited)?  If
anyone has any insight on this, please share it.

- Debbie Klein


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 16:21 O
Subject: Condolences

    On behalf of myself and my brothers Dov and Shael, I would like to
thank all those who sent us condolences and words of consolation on the
passing of Imeinu Morateinu Esther Miriam Bat ha-Rav Moshe Zev
ha-Kohen,hareinu Kapparat Mishkava. Yehi Zichra barukh.
                    Aryeh Frimer


From: Moshe Hacker <HACKERM@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:56:37 EST
Subject: Havdalah and Overflowing wine

Does anyone know why when we make Havdalah we fill up the wine cup 
till it spills over. 



From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 09:31:37 EST
Subject: Kiddush by Non-Observant person

With respect to whether one can fulfil one's obligation of Kiddush on
Shabbat by hearing Kiddush from a non-observant Jew, Nachum Spirn
indicates that if the non-observant Jew is making kiddush with the
intention to perform the mitzva (as opposed to doing a cultural
activity), then one could fulfil one's obligation.  I see a further
problem with this.  The purpose of the Mitzvah of Kiddush is to declare
the sanctity of the day.  If the person making the Kiddush does not
share the same view of the sanctity of the day (i.e he does not feel
personally obligated to abstain from doing work on Shabbat), it would
seem problematic to be able to join together with his declaration of the
sanctity of the day.  The concepts of Shamor and Zachor (colloquially -
the abstention aspects of Shabbat, and the positive fulfillment aspects
of Shabbat) are intrinsically connected, and it would not seem proper to
fulfill one's obligation of Zachor through a person who does not observe
the Shamor.  I cannot pinpoint a clear halachic argument to this -- it
just seems safer to make one's own Kiddush under such circumstances.

It is only with regard to Kiddush, which involves an intention to
declare the sanctity of the day, that this seems to be the case.  With
other mitzvot, megilla and shofar for example, so long as the person
doing the mitzvah does have intention to fulfil the mitzva, there would
seem to be no problem.  With tefilla betzibur (public prayer) during the
week, there would also seem to be no problem.  There would seem to be
the problem with tefilla betzibur on Shabbat, in which we declare
'retzei bimnuchateinu' accept our rest.  If the shaliach tzibur (prayer
leader) does not share the congregagion's concept of what is rest on
Shabbat, it be difficult to see how he could be a proper representative
of the congregation.  Interestingly enough, the Yom Tov prayers and
Kiddush make no reference to the resting (i.e. abstention from labour)
on those days -- although they do make reference to the sanctity of the
day, which of course includes the abstention from labour.  Thus, it
would seem to be less problematic to accept the Kiddush and public
prayers of the non-observant person on YomTov than on Shabbat.  On
Shabbat, the abstention of labour is really the defining aspect of the
day -- not so on Yom Tov, although it is extremely important.

Sorry for the fuzziness of this post.  Most of it is from 'gut feelings'
developed during my years of growing up in a home where the family was
non-observant but did have a respect for Mitzvot.  I always made Kiddush
for the family, and everyone felt that it was natural that the observant
person in the family, even though he was by no means the oldest, was
best fitted to perform this role on everyone's behalf.  I would
appreciate it if any could firm up some of the halachic issues that I
have touched on here.

Chag Kasher Vesameach,    Jerrold Landau


From: <silver@...> (Alan and Sharon Silver)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 22:47:53 GMT
Subject: Kiddush on Shabbat by non-religious Jew

> From: <frankele@...> (Edwin R Frankel)
> >Hi. I would like to know what's the halacha if a non-religious Jew makes
> >kiddush on Shabbos are you aloud to be yotzeh or not?
> Two things are troublesome to me in this question.
> 1) Since when is it anyone's concern how religious another may be?  After
> all, are we not bidden to judge one another l'chaf zechut (leniently)
> 2) It would seem that it is the mitzvah that is the concern, not the perso
> to perform it.

Dear Ed,

I suspect that you have rather missed the point of the question. As a
matter of philosophy it is unquestionably clear that one should judge
another Jew favourably and should always give the benefit of the
doubt. Unless I am mistaken, this was not the subject of the
question. The original question seems to be asking, quite justifiably,
if one can be yotzeh a mitzva when the person doing the action may not
believe in what he/she is doing.

I asked my rabbi about this subject and he told me that as long as the
person *doing* the mitzva believes in Hashem and has some belief in the
purpose of mitzvos, then you can be yotzeh. If they do not believe in
Hashem, then is it highly questionable (= highly unlikely) that you
could be yotzeh.

As in any such case, you should ask your LCHA for a firm decision. The
above opinion is clearly a general discussion.

Alan Silver
|            <silver@...>                |


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:28:29 -0500
Subject: Korban Pesach bazman ha'zeh

A known talmid chacham asked me to post this qustion to the group. He is
collecting information on this subject. (If the answer would have been
straight forward he would not have posted it!)

Is Korban Pesach allowed Bazman Hazeh?

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:34:58 -0800
Subject: Kosher l'Pesach "Pasta" and Kitniyot

While doing Pesach shopping, I stopped in mid-aisle to gape at 
the boxes of Manishevitz "Pasta & Sauce Mix." Can anyone explain 
how this can be permitted when we can't eat kitniyot because it 
might look like chometz???

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address. 


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:58:44 -0500
Subject: Mazal Tov!

I would like to take the oppertunity to wish Mazal Tov To David Riceman
and Suzanne Arny on their marriage this past Sunday. David is a member
of the mail-jewish family, and several other mail-jewish members, both
several I know from here in Highland Park, as well as a number I met
face-to-face for the first time from Chicago/Skokie. By my rough
calculation, at least 10% of the guests were mail-jewish readers!

Avi Feldblum


From: Rabbi Yaakov Shemaria <yaakovshem@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:34:28 GMT
Subject: Naming Ceremony for Girls

I am interested in instituting a naming ceremony for girls, in my
congregation. I am aware of the Sefardi tradition and have a copy of
their "zeved habat" service. Does anyone know of a similar ceremony in
the Askenazi tradition? Recently I have come across in the last chapter
of " Sharshei Askenaz", a discussion about an old Askenazi naming
ceremony called, " Holekraasch", however the author, Rabbi Hamberger,
does not state what this service consisted of. I would appreciate
hearing from anyone who as particpated, or is aware of such a ceremony.

        Yaakov Shemaria
Rabbi Yaakov Shemaria
Beth Hamidrash Hagadol Synagogue tel-0113-269-2181
399 Street Lane			fax- 0113-237-0113		
 Leeds ls17 6lb, United kingdom	e-mail <yaakovshem@...>


From: Sholom Parnes <merbe@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:07:04 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Non-Use of Certain Biblical Names 

Attention Moshe Sokolow Re: your posting on Mail Jewish about the
non-use of certain biblical names until the Geonic period;
 The gemara in Baba Batra daf 174b mentions a certain Moshe bar Atzri.
The gemara in Gittin daf 50a mentions Avram Chozeah (not Avraham).
There is supposed to be a David bar Nehelai of Nehardoye mentioned in the
Rabbeinu Asher of Yevamoth daf 115b althogh I wasn't able to locate it.
All this info courtesy of Toldot Tannaim ve'Amorraim by Rav Aharon Heyman.
Have a happy kosher Pesach.
Sholom Parnes -  Efrat - Israel


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <andyls@...>
Date: 24 Mar 1996 20:40:01 -0600
Subject: Seder suggestions?

This Pesach my wife and I are planning, G-d willing, to make our first
seder. In previous years we've always attended seders with friends,
partly because we didn't feel confident of our abilities to make a seder
and partly for family reasons. We have non-observant family in town, and
we've never been sure how to balance our wish to carry out a full,
typically Orthodox seder, with our family's wish to feel
comfortable. It's not that a seder is foreign to them, by any means; but
typically they'd start substantially before sunset, buzz past less
gripping bits like Hallel, etc.

Anyway, this year we've taken the plunge and the second seder will be at
our house! So, can anyone who's faced this issue previously share their
experiences? "Here's what worked, and as importantly, here's what

We'd also be grateful for any suggestions or discussion about keeping
the seder entertaining for young children. Our oldest is nearly three,
and one of the cousins is four. No older siblings, so it's just us
adults and the preschool set. How have other list members begun the
educational process around Pesach for their children?

Feel free to answer off-list if you wish, although I suspect it may be
an interesting topic for others. Thanks in advance.

 Andy Levy-Stevenson                 Email:       <andyls@...>
 Tea for Two Communications          Voice & Fax:   612.920.6217
 Graphic Design - - - - - Strategic Planning - - - - - Marketing


End of Volume 23 Issue 55