Volume 23 Number 73
                       Produced: Thu Apr 18 23:34:27 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Alternatives to Chag Kosher v'Sameach
         [Gary Goldwater]
Chag Kasher v'Sameyach
         [Ralph Zwier]
         [Murray Gingold]
Hag Kasher V'sameah (2)
         [Janice Gelb, Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>]
Hagadah - Wicked Son
         [Jeanette Friedman]
Hagadah Question
         [Ari Shapiro]
Pesach greeting
         [Yitz Weiss]
Rules for unkosher contact on Pesah
         [Steven R Weintraub]
The Truth about the Righteous vs the Wicked son in the Hagaddah
         [Russell Hendel]
Wise Son vs Wicked Son
         [Ralph Zwier]


From: Gary Goldwater <GOLDWATER@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Alternatives to Chag Kosher v'Sameach

Re: How to modify "chag kosher v'sameach"  so that it fits a non-observant Jew.

	I am assuming that "Chag Sameach" is too 'pareve' a greeting to
apply to Pesach. How about the following:

	But the best farewell I have found, is:" Would you come over for
a seder?"  I'm always suprised and honored at how often the answer is
"yes".  When the answer is "no, I'm already going somewhere", you get a
knowing smile.  That smile means "chag kosher v'sameach" on whatever
level s/he understands it.

	Gary Goldwater


From: Ralph Zwier <zwierr@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:29:03 +0000
Subject: Chag Kasher v'Sameyach

My LOR brings up the following point each year:

What merit is there in wishing "A Chag Kasher...", since it would appear 
to be in a person's own control whether he/she makes a Chag Kasher 
irrespective of the wishes of the other person? [This is the same 
point as made by Eliyahu Shiffman V23 #65 in a different guise]. There 
is no problem wishing someone a Chag Sameyach, since it clearly is not 
completely in the person's control, and we pray that Hashem will 
grant the person a Chag Sameach.

Well my LOR says that we have to understand that Pesach, where its 
Kashrut is ruined by even a Mashehu (one iota) of Chametz (leaven), 
we definitely will require Hashem to grant us a chag Kasher, and it 
is therefore an appropriate wish.

In my opinion if the wisher understands this, then the "wishee" will 
not be offended even if he is not observant.

Ralph Zwier                        Voice    61 3 9521 2188
Double Z Computer                    Fax    61 3 9521 3945


From: Murray Gingold <murray@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:41:45 +0300 (IST)
Subject: Re: Chometz

Regarding Mischa Gelman's problem:
> If you have very good reason to believe your parents did not sell
> Chometz before Pescah and there is still CHometz in the house and they
> claim they have sold the CHometz, so you can eat it after Pesach what do
> you do??
> If you dont eat it, theyll notice and wonder why and you will have no
> answer
> If you do eat it, isnt that a major sin?

I make 2 assumptions here: 1. that the person asking this question has
no actual problem with the kashrut of any of this food, (otherwise it
would be easier for him/her not to eat it), the problem being only the
strong reason existing for believing it was not sold; 2. that the
parents here don't themselves follow halacha as closely as the child
(otherwise the PARENTS would not be eating this unsold chometz

I am not a rav, so I can only offer non-halachik workarounds, not a
psak. If the relationship with his/her parents is such that he/she can
honestly explain their concerns, then this should be done. Since the
parents must know that the child here is on a "frummer" plane, they may
respect the concerns, or at least tolerate it for the sake of "shalom
bayit". If they insist that it was sold, but the child still believes it
wasn't, perhaps the parents could be asked details (which rabbi/shul)
which could be verified. Although, this itself would involve treading
carefully, the potential for insulting feelings - on both sides - are
great here. If the relationship is such that the parents would willfully
attempt to trick the child into eating unsold chometz, knowing the
childs concerns, then there are problems here which transcend this issue

I would also suggest, btw, that next year the child offer to sell the
chometz personally for them. Which would solve the headaches for them

Murray Gingold         
Jerusalem, Israel


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:55:18 -0700
Subject: Hag Kasher V'sameah

>Can anyone suggest a greeting more appropriate to the times?

A friend of mine suggested "chag kasher OR sameach" :->

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this     
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address.

From: Zvi Weiss	<weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:27:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hag Kasher V'sameah

 Given the tremendous difficulties that have come up in the past -- all
of the myriad Sha'elot (questions) that have arisen -- indeed some that
have (potentially) been able to spell catastrophe for the Observant Jew,
iit is no surprise to me that -- specifically for Pesach -- the holiday
"wish" would include the "hope" that the holiday would not only be a
joyous one -- but one where no difficult questions arose.

And, given the seriousness of the prohibition of Chametz, I cannot see
it as offensive to hope that ALL Jews be sensitive in this area.  Would
the poster feel that it is improper to wish an Alcoholic a "drink-free"
holiday because that person will (a) be offended or (b) will regard it
as superfluous?



From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:31:56 -0400
Subject: Hagadah - Wicked Son

I find really disturbing the line in the Hagaddah involving the wicked
son--Hakeh et Shinav-- Does that mean that if a parent decides that a
kid is " wicked," you can knock his teeth out?  Not that this is the
only disturbing line in the Hagaddah, but I find it really scary,
because many people I grew up with had parents who used it as an excuse
to beat the crap out of their "evil" children.

How do you get rid of the line? (Interestingly enough, the Hagaddah I
was using didn't bother to translate that line into English. Another one
said "Set his teeth on edge... Cut me a break!)

The meaning of the words in Hebrew are crystal clear.  It's not "set his
teeth on edge," it's "hit him in the teeth."

Yeah. Right. How to win friends and influence your kids. NOT.


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 20:06:22 EDT
Subject: Hagadah Question

The Beis Halevi (parshas Bo) has a beautiful explanation of the Rasha's 
words. He explains the Rasha's emphasis is what is this WORSHIP to you? Why
do we have to observe these archaic practices? The Rasha says that he could
understand why the Jews in Egypt had to bring a Korban Pesach because the
Egyptions worshipped sheep, but now times have changed, let us do something
more appropriate now. Bringing a Korban (sacrifice) isn't what God wants 
anymore. And we answer the Rasha, true we have to look for the reasons for 
the Mitzvos, but we have to understand that really the Mitzvos preceded 
what happened in Egypt. The Zohar says that Hashem looked into the Torah 
and created the world. The Torah existed before the world was created. 
Avraham kept the Mitzva of Korban Pesach (see the Medrash in Vayera) even 
though the whole story in Egypt had not happened yet. And with this we can 
understand the answwer to the Rasha 'Baavur zeh asa hashem' because of this
Hashem did this. It really should say because we left Egypt we do these 
mitzvos, why does it say 'Baavur zeh'. The answer is that it is the reverse
of what we thin, that because we have these mitzvos in the torah the whole 
story in Egypt had to happen. And this applies to all Mitzvos that it is 
NOT because of the reason we do the mitzva but because of the mitzva the 
reason occurred. And therefore the Rasha's claim of the reason no longer 
exists we should not do the mitva falls away.
If you can read it in the original hebrew, i am afraid I did not do it 
justice here Ari Shapiro


From: <YitzW@...> (Yitz Weiss)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:45:29 -0400
Subject: re: Pesach greeting

Many non-religious Jews whom I know use the greeting "A zeesin Pesach" (A
sweet Pesach). It seems to fit the bill...


From: Steven R Weintraub <stevenw@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:38:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Rules for unkosher contact on Pesah

In my notes on kashrut I have the following :

    Items can be unkashered by using unkosher food in them (like 
    forbidden meat) or by accidentally using a milchig utensil for 
    fleishig food (or vice versa). The food and the utensil becomes 
    immediately unkashered if either the food or the utensil is hot. 
    The food and utensil becomes unkashered after 24 hours if both 
    the food and utensil are cold.

My question is does this rule change for Pesah in regards to non-kosher
for Pesah items.

For example.  If I accidentally put a cold piece of meat on a milk plate 
and still have no problem with it as long as I remove it immediately.  
(That this is an acceptable practice is another question, but it is 
technically alright).  But what about if I accidentally put a piece of 
matzah on a plate I normally use (and not made kosher for Pesah).  

This is not a situation I ran into this past Pesah, but the question
did come up in relation to someone I knew.

Steven Ross Weintraub        Office : 512-343-6666 |  O Lord,
PSW Technologies             Home   : 512-453-6953 |    let me talk gently,
nascent Web page : http://www.pswtech.com/~stevenw |  for I might have to eat
external Email : <stevenw@...>               |    my words tomorrow.


From: Russell Hendel <RHendel@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:57:46 -0500
Subject: The Truth about the Righteous vs the Wicked son in the Hagaddah

In Vol 23 # 55 (Mon April 15 1996) there were seven discussants about
the righteous vs wicked son in the Hagaddah.

A chidush on this was presented in an article I wrote, PESHAT and
DERASH, printed in TRADITION, WINTER 1980.

A brief summary of the explanation is the following:

The verses connected with the wicked son introduces the question with
the word SAYS..."When your children SAY to you 'what is this work to
you'" On the other hand the wise and simple son ASK their question (The
verb SHAAL is used vs AMAR).  Obviously a person who SAYS a question is
RHETORICALLY (CYNICALLY) ASKING it while a person who ASKS a question is

In that article I further suggest the distinction between SUPPORTIVE and
REAL reasons.  A SUPPORTIVE reason is a reason which DOESN"T PROVE your
point but SUPPORTS it if you have other proof.

There are three traditional reasons associated with the wicked vs righteous
problem...I think it legitimate to call these reasons SUPPORTIVE:
      ***The wicked does not mention GOD ; the righteous does
         ---note it is absurd to say that everyone who doesn't mention
            God is wicked; therefore this reason is only supportive

     **The wicked does not use distinctions; the righteous does
         --note the simple does not use distinctions either

     ** The wicked uses ETCHCHEM; the wise LACHEM

This whole point can be further strengthened with the following study of
the LIST of all QUESTION ANSWERS in the bible to children

      1) When your sons SAY to you  WHAT IS THIS WORK
      2)        ....and you will say with a strong hand God..
      3) When you son ASKS you "What is this"
      4)  When you sons ASK you what are the STATUES, TESTIMONIES...

1) Comes from BOH; 2) and 3) also come from BOH from the TEFILLIN
Parshah; 4) Occurs at the end of VAETHCHANAN in Devarim

Now we can even better understand chazal:
    2) Is the son who can't ask (In fact he is the only son who doesn't ask)
    3) I s the simple son (WHAT IS THIS) while
    4) Is the righteous son (Since he gives distinctions)
    1) Is the wicked son since he is the only son who SAYS his question.

In summary: The wicked is wicked because he cynically SAYS his question.
After finding he is wicked it is legitimate to mention supportive
features such as his not mentioning God.

For those interested the above article gives many other fine points on
the methodology of studying Peshat. The importance of using lists should
also be noted.

Incidentally when I wrote the article someone mentioned that Dr
Leibowitz discovered this chidush.  I would appreciate it if someone
would give me a source.  A person named Abraham Ossey once showed me a
mideval Hagaddah with this chidush (he showed it to me after the article
was published) but alas I have forgotten the name.

I hope the above clarifies the issue.

Russell Jay Hendel Ph.d. ASA
Dept of Math and COmputer Science
Drexel Univ, Phil Pa


From: Ralph Zwier <zwierr@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:22:33 +0000
Subject: Wise Son vs Wicked Son

There have been many differences between the question of the wise son and 
the question of the wicked son already pinted out, here are two more:

The wise son "asks": The pasuk says: When your son ASKS (Yish'alecha) 
you in time to come, What are the statutes, judgements ...."

The wicked sone "tells": The pasuk says "It shall be when your sons 
TELL you (Ki yomru),  What is this Avodah (service) to you"

The wise son son's pasuk is in the singular implying a genuine one on 
one questioning of his father.

The wicked son's pasuk is in the plural ("It shall be when your
SONS tell you, implying that they have collaborated together to
ask you the question, meaning that they have an ulterior motive.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe pointed out (by implication) in his Haggada
commentary that the wise sone MUST say "etchem" in the second person 
when addressing his father; this is because the whole Pesach service  
(including the Korban and the Seder) represents a handover of 
tradition from one generation to the next. It would not make sense 
for the son to already be acting as though he is a party to that 
tradition. On the contrary, it s very important that he starts out 
his question as an outsider seeking to learn from his ancestors.
------------                       -----    --------------
Ralph Zwier                        Voice    61 3 9521 2188
Double Z Computer                    Fax    61 3 9521 3945


End of Volume 23 Issue 73