Volume 23 Number 90
                       Produced: Thu May  9  0:07:41 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bread Machines and Challah
         [Josh Males]
Correcting Torah Reading On Note Mistakes
         [Russell Hendel]
Covering Eyes (2)
         [Lawrence Cher, Yisrael Medad]
El Al Kashrut
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Integration of Moral Values into the Torah Community
         [Arthur J Einhorn]
Mazal Tov!
         [Tova and Alan Taragin]
Must a Jew Believe Anything
         [Menachem Kellner]
New Sefer Chidushei R' Chaim on Bava Metzia
         [Ari Shapiro]
Polygraph in a Din Torah
         [David Jutkowitz]
Proof of the Mesorah
         [Gershon Dubin]
Rings and Washing
         [Joel Goldberg]
Ruth Langer's request re: Kibud Av va-Em
         [Jay Rovner]
Three Cohanim
         [Al Silberman]
Tikun for reading the Torah
         [Schwartz Adam]
Yeshiva as House of Study
         [Binyomin Segal]


From: Josh Males <jmales@...>
Date: Wed, 08 May 96 12:24:06 
Subject: Bread Machines and Challah

          Does one take challa when making bread with a bread machine?
          Josh (<jmales@...>)


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 15:19:52 -0400
Subject: Correcting Torah Reading On Note Mistakes

It is well known that we do not correct baalay keriah on note mistakes

It is also well known that we do correct baalay keriah on mistakes that
change meaning.

What happens when the above two principles contradict each other.  If a
note mistake blatantly changes the meaning or sense of a verse should
the baal koray be corrected. If not, why not.

This question was inspired by the Posook in last week's Parshah, Emor,
   "Vho, ishah vivsooleha yikach"---And he, a women in her virginity
should take

The traditional cantillations create a pause (or comma) after he.

Suppose instead a person read this verse with say "Merchah, Tipchah,
Merchah sof-poosook" so that the verse read

"Vho ishah, vivsooleah yikach"---"And (if) he is a woman
(e.g. androginos), (then) a women that is a virgin he should take".

It would seem that the change in cantillations changed the meaning of
the sentence and the question arises as to whether the person should be
corrected and if not why not.

(This question was purely theoretical and did not arise from an actual

Russell Hendel Ph.d. ASA
rhendel @ mcs . drexel . edu


From: Lawrence Cher <cher@...>
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 17:55:09 +1000
Subject: Re: Covering Eyes

Recently Stan Tenen wrote in relationship to the hand and mind in the 

"In humans, the cortex that normally controls hand movements in primates
also controls speech.  Clinical studies have demonstrated that hearing
impaired children use the same neural structures and processes to
produce hand-gesture language as hearing children use to produce
phonetic language."

As a neurologist, this is nonsense.  The area of the brain which
controls hand movements does NOT relate to speech.  In deaf children who
communicate LANGUAGE via hand movements, the LANGUAGE area of the brain
would be activated.  I am not sure what studies he is referring to
exactly.  It may be that they are studies of brainactivation using PET
scans or functional MRI. However I am sure that they would fall in to
what I have explained above.  Theories that are based on a loose
interpretation of scientific studies need to be looked at carefully -
they do no service to Jewish philosophy and thought.

Lawrence Cher

From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 96 13:05:28 PST
Subject: Covering Eyes

Re; Stan's comments in #88:
 Although I appreciate his studies, I think the Tefillin-shaped
geometric patterns and vertebrae and limbs, etc., etc., and et al., are
a bit out of the way, if no other reason than the fact that we cover our
eyes for Sh'ma also in the evening when we have no Tefillin straps
wrapped around our hands (by the way, Ashkenaz or S'fard style

I am still waiting for the relating to the Moslem anthropological link I
though I might have discovered.

Yisrael Medad


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Thu, 02 May 96 08:41 O
Subject: El Al Kashrut

    On Tuesday February 20th I posted the following on Mail-Jewish:

     Yesterday's editorial in HaTsofeh (the Mafda"l newspaper) focussed
on an issue that many are not aware of. About a month ago, Rav Katsir,
the Rav hamachshir (Kashrut Supervisor) of El Al was fired/left and has
not since been replaced. Presumably, there is still some internal
rabbinic supervision, but El Al has cut that down to a minimum as well.
The "special Kosher" is still under the supervision of Rav Kulitz (chief
rabbi of Jerusalem) and is of course reliable, but the regular food is
problematic to say the least. The food served in the first class lounge
at Ben Gurion comes from a restaurant which is open on Shabbat! Hence,
until there is somebody of stature and authority appointed to supervise
the Kashrut at El Al, it is highly recommended that people flying El Al
or Tower (which also gets its regular food from the El Al Kitchen) to
order "Special Kosher" Meals.  The editorial also mentioned a problem
with the food on the direct LA to Israel flight. Presumably, the
hashgacha is not OU, but I don't know any further details.
    It might be helpful if people contacted El Al and expressed their
disatisfaction with the lack of proper supervision at El Al.

    At the request of many M-Jers, I have asked my sources whether the
situation has changed. Unfortunately it has not; indeed my sources claim
that it has deteriorated even more - with little or no supervision on
what happens to the food once it hits the El Al kitchens.  Requests
for "special Kosher" meals on El Al and Tower have increased a great
deal but not enough to put sufficient pressure on the Administration of
El Al. Most people are still not aware of the situation.  For reasons
that are not clear to me, the Rabbanut has not made a stink. But "dems
da facts". Caveat Emptor or as we say in Israel "harei huzhartem"!
Spread the word.
                Yom Ha-Atzmaut Same'ach


From: Arthur J Einhorn <0017801@...>
Date: 07 May 1996 12:22:12 GMT
Subject: Integration of Moral Values into the Torah Community

Based on new revelations of chillul hashem in the community(NY in this
case) I suggest we open a thread on the subject of integration of moral
values into the Torah community and family.

Examples of material of value here would be:
 1. specific statements and insights from seforim and gedolim. eg. I
once heard the Satmar Rebbe Shlit"a say in public that geneva is a
chesaron (lack) of amuna.
 2. Specific methods used by schools and communities and individuals to
teach these values.
 3. Specific reference material

Ahron Einhorn


From: <Tovt@...> (Tova and Alan Taragin)
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 10:53:16 -0400
Subject: Mazal Tov!

Subject: Birth announcement: M-J subscribers Tova and Alan Taragin
(Baltimore, MD) have become grandparents of a boy this morning (Lag
Baomer) Mother Yehudit, father Meyer Shields, big sister Eliana, and
baby doing great.


From: Menachem Kellner <M.KELLNER@...>
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 7:57:56 +0300 (EET-DST)
Subject: Must a Jew Believe Anything

 I have a question for you. I am revising a short book I wrote (called
MUST A JEW BELIEVE ANYTHING), aimed at a non-scholarly audience, in
which I argue that today's tendency to label non-Orthodox Jews as
heretics or theological deviants is an unfortunate and unnecessary
consequence of the (mis-)application of Maimonidean categories of
thought. For stalking horses I use David Bleich and Jonathan Sacks
because they are as liberal on these issues as you are going to get in
contemporary mainline Orthodoxy, but they are constrained themselves by
their "maimonideanism".
 One of the book's readers faulted me for not citing and discussing Reb
Moshe's teshuvot and other similar sources. I myself do not plan on
making a whole big deal out of this in the book, since my whole argument
in the book is with the "Modern Orthodox" (i.e., with people like me)
but nonetheless would like to cite sources and literature.
 I am familiar with an article with appeared in JUDAISM some years ago
by Jacob Chinitz, "Reb Moshe and the Conservatives" but have seen nothin
else that looks at the issue from any but a polemical stance. I am also
interested in the polemic itself and would appreciate references to
sources (including specific articles in the Agudah publication, Jewish
Observer, in the RCA publicaton, Tradition, etc). I am interested as
well in information concerning arguments over Orthodox participation in
the Synagogue Council of America. It has been reported to me (by the
endlessly erudite and energetic Marc Shapiro) that the NYTimes reported
some ten years ago on a flap engendered by a comment by R. Norman Lamm
to the effect that the non-Orthodox are "legitimate but not valid".
 Details on that would be very much appreciated as well.
Many thanks, Menachem (Kellner)

Menachem Kellner, Dean of Students and Wolfson Chair of Jewish Thought
University of Haifa, Haifa, Israel
Tel. 972 4 822-7647 h   972 4 822-7647 o / Fax 972 4 824-0319
e-mail: <M.KELLNER@...> or RHIT402@UVM.HAIFA.AC.IL (internet)


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 21:22:07 EDT
Subject: New Sefer Chidushei R' Chaim on Bava Metzia

I saw that the person who published the Brisker Haggadda has published a
sefer of Chiddushim of R' Chaim on Bava Metzia. Does anyone have any
information about this sefer, where he got the material from? is it
reliable?  etc? I find it strange that suddenly now he is publihing the
chiddushim (novella) of R' Chaim.

Ari Shapiro


From: <dsjut@...> (David Jutkowitz)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 08:39:00 IDT
Subject: Polygraph in a Din Torah

I would like to know if anyone is aware of any articles or information
relating to the use and admissibility of a polygraph in a din torah. I
know of two articles in "TECHUMIN".
 David Jutkowitz


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Tue, 07 May 96 10:00:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Proof of the Mesorah

 MF> I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me the following. I once heard
 MF> the Kuzari used to provide a solid proof as to the validity of the
 MF> Mesorah [the "chain of tradition," reaching from Sinai to our day]. 

        I know that the tradition is valid because my father and
teachers wouldn't lie to me.  Their fathers and teachers passed the
tradition to them.  If you multiply that fact by the n u m b e r of
people in any one generation passing on the tradition, an unbroken
tradition, the validity is self-evident.

<gershon.dubin@...>      |
http://www.medtechnet.com/~dubinG |


From: <goldberg@...> (Joel Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 08:44:43 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Rings and Washing

Schwartz Adam <adams@...> wrote:
>            ...I've seen/heard that many people, who rarely if ever take
> off their rings for anything, are not required to remove them
> for washing Netilat Yadayim...
   I believe that if you would not take off the rings to knead bread, then
you don't need to remove them for washing.


From: <jarovner@...> (Jay Rovner)
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 21:56:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ruth Langer's request re: Kibud Av va-Em

Mar. 25, Ruth Langer requested materials dealing with aged, mentally
debilitated parents from the perspective of kibut av va-em.  See Levi Meier,
"Filial Responsibility to the Senile Parent: a Jewish Approach" journal of
Psychology and Judaism 2:1 (Fall 1977)45-53 (he may have written a book in
the meantime: suggest search academic library catalog). Basil Herring,
Jewish Ethics and Halakhah for our time (New york, Ktav 19??) discusses
filial piety "when a parent displays mental or emotional dysfunction" (p.
212 ff.).  Also,  there might be something in Gerald Blidstein, Honor Thy
and thy Mother. 


From: <asilberman@...> (Al Silberman)
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 13:33:35 -0500
Subject: Three Cohanim

Mechael Kanovsky writes in MJ v23n86:

>Being that there were only three cohanim at that time
>(Pinchas was not considered a cohen till much later) and also taking into
>account that they had to eat 17 shelamim for twelve days in a row, how
>were they able to eat all that meat?

A similar question can be asked about the first korbon pesach. I estimate
that at least 100,000 animals were required for the entire population.
These had to be processed within 6 hours. That is a lot of work for just
three people!


From: Schwartz Adam <adams@...>
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 15:19:22 +0300
Subject: Tikun for reading the Torah

any baalei kriyah (readers of the torah) out there who have an opinion
on what is the best tikkun (book designed to help people read from the
torah)?  most importanat factor i assume is spelling and trop
(cantillations).  ease of use is also nice

i've heard from a few people that one can rely on the spellings,
pronunciations, and trop found in the one put out by the mossad rav

any recommendations??

this is to be a present for a 9yr old who wants to learn how to lein



From: <bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 22:31:06 -0500
Subject: Yeshiva as House of Study

DM Matar asked:
 * for an authoritative source (e.g. Rishon, etc.)
 * for the use of the word "yeshiva" to connotate a school intended for
 * learning purposes.  Its roots, etc.  Does it have something to do with
 * living?

Rashi in his commentary to the Bavli uses the term a few times (see for
example Shabbos 45b and ketuvos 111a). I was unable to find any earlier
unambiguous example of the term with that meaning -- perhaps most
intresting is the gemara in baba kama 16b (very bottom of the page)
where the gemara uses the term yeshiva and rashi explains it to mean
students learning torah.



End of Volume 23 Issue 90