Volume 23 Number 96
                       Produced: Mon May 13 22:54:41 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bread Machines and Challah
         [Edwin R Frankel]
Bread Machines Vol. 23 #94 Digest
         [Fivel Smiles]
Camp in France
         [Jeanette Friedman]
Correcting a baal-korei & finding a tikkun
         [Israel Pickholtz]
Forced Get
         [Carl and Adina Sherer]
         [Steve White]
Lag Bomer
         [Menachem Kovacs]
Netilah, Animals and Conversion
         [Michael and Abby Pitkowsky]
Slit Skirt and Modesty
         [Esther Kestenbaum]
Textual drift
         [Joshua W. Burton]
The Wicked Son's Teeth
         [Carl and Adina Sherer]
Tzniut for Men and Slits in Skirts
         [Esther Posen]
Tzniut, Slits, etc.
         [Joseph Steinberg]


From: <frankele@...> (Edwin R Frankel)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 08:00:27 -0700
Subject: Bread Machines and Challah

          Does one take challa when making bread with a bread machine?
          Josh (<jmales@...>)

No need, The shiur for baking is not met in most bread machines.  For
shiurim on taking challah, check references in Spice and Spirit of
Jewish Cooking, a Lubavitch cookbook with wonderful halachic material
that anyone can understand.

Ed Frankel


From: <fsmiles@...> (Fivel Smiles)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:39:04 -0700
Subject: Bread Machines Vol. 23 #94 Digest

 If you make more than one loaf from a bread machine, (say 3 ) and then
put them in one basket or bag , then you would be obligated in halla and
either take it from the dough before it is baked while it's in machine
(since you know what you are going to do) or cut a piece of bread off a
 fivel smiles
e-mail <fsmiles@...> Smiles Torah Project
http://www.613.org-- Jewish Audio Library heard around the world.


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 07:05:30 -0400
Subject: Camp in France

The camp in France from whence most people were deported was called Gurs.


From: Israel Pickholtz <rotem@...>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:29:06 +0300
Subject: Correcting a baal-korei & finding a tikkun

A good tikkun?? - there isn't one.

Correcting the ba'al koreh, I use a good rule.  If he won't understand
what you mean, don't bother.  It only increases the bizayon for those
who understand and the tircha for those who don't.

That is the case in ta'amim as well as in mile-ra/mile-eil.

I can never understand how otherwise intelligent people will allow a 
ba'al korei to read Shemot 3 v.15:
Vayomer     od elohim     el-Moshe (rachmana litz'lan)

instead of:
Vayomer od   Elokim         el-Moshe.

And the fact is, a person who can't hear himself make this type of
terrible mistake, will not understand what the corrector wants from him
anyway - at least not "toch kedei keriyya."

And of course there are many such errors.

The problem isn't so much not knowing how to read - its not knowing how
to listen.

Israel Pickholtz


From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 20:53:06 +0000
Subject: Forced Get

In MJ Vol.23 # 85 I wrote:

> I think there's a mistaken assumption here - the assumption that the get
> is somehow connected to the financial settlement.  One should have
> nothing to do with the other.  The halachic prescription in a divorce
> case is that the husband must pay to the wife the value of the Ksuva.
> [The typical ksuva is worth a lot more than the present value of the
> stream of child support payments that a husband typically pays his wife
> on divorce today.  If anything, going to court to determine the support
> payments is for the *husband's* benefit - he's the one trying to excape
> from a contract.  Given that premise, it seems that the least the
> husband could do is not to use the get as a club over his wife's head to
> ensure that the financial settlement is negligible].  The get and the
> financial settlement shoudl have nothing to do with each other.

In the above paragraph, the portion which I have now placed in 
brackets should have been deleted from the final version of the post 
since it inaccurately describes the value of the ksuva except in 
weddings which take place in Eretz Yisrael where it is customary to 
add cash to the value of the silver given in the Ksuva.  Only if that 
addition is fairly large would the statement in brackets have been 

I apologize for the error.

-- Carl Sherer
Carl and Adina Sherer


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:12:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Goose

In a message dated 96-04-25 08:49:35 EDT, Rabbi Broyde writes:
>Does anyone know of a source for kosher goose in the United States or
>Michael Broyde

My wife Ann-Sheryl looked into this because of a custom brought down in
mj a while back (Avi -- I still didn't find it) that there is a minhag
to make goose on Shabbat Chanukah.  She worked pretty hard at it, and in
the end determined that the only way to do it was to go to the poultry
farm on the day the shochet was coming, pick a goose, have it shechted,
and clean it and dress it herself.

I'm sure that's not what you wanted to hear, and if you hear *differently*,
I'd sure be interested to know!



From: Menachem Kovacs <mkovacs@...>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Lag Bomer

Chaim Saiman wrote further interesting comments on Lag Bomer in MJ
Vol.23 No.94 on the fact that the 34th day of th Omer seems to have
greater Halachic significance than the 33rd yet it is the latter day
which is the Yom Tov.  The reason for this may simply be that the Rashbi
requested that Chai (18) Iyar be CELEBRATED as a Yom Tov even though he
knew it would be the day of his passing from this world because, he
explained, it marked the completion of his teachings in Nigla and
Nistar, teachings which together give the Jewish people their identity
as AmHaTorah, i.e.they are our SPIRITUAL life (chai=life).


From: Michael and Abby Pitkowsky <pitab@...>
Date: Tue,  7 May 96 22:26:07 PDT
Subject: Netilah, Animals and Conversion

>Does anyone know the source for NOT removing rings
>for washing? 

In the ShAr OH 161:3 the Rama says that there are those who are lenient
about not taking off a ring for netilat yadayim if the ring is loose.
He also says that it is improper to hold by this opinion.  The Rama also
says even if one is not diligent about taking the ring off while doing
work they do not take it off for netilah.  The Mishnah Berurah in siman
katan 19 says that this is specifically talking about women. The MB says
that most women would take off their ring while kneading dough while
most men would not.  Therefore men who are not diligent about taking off
their rings while doing work may leave it on.  If the man has a ring
with an expensive stone on it, he would probably take it off while doing
work therefore he should also take it off for netilat yadayim.

>Does anyone know what the halacha is surrounding the use and sacrifice
>of animals for biomedical research?

See J. David Bleich's _Contemporary Halachic Problems Vol. III_, 
pp.194-237 for a good summary of the halachic literature concerning
animal experimentation.  

>The second reason is that the Conservative movement DOES do just this.
>And I think that often in modern times Orthodoxy avoids lenient but
>halachically legitimate psak because Conservatism already does it, and
>Orthodoxy doesn't want to be seen as "conceding" to Conservatism.

A good example might be conversion.  There are numerous poskim who take
a very lenient position regarding the requirements for conversion, e.g.
what level of observance a convert must be willing to live by.  For two
thorough discussions of the issue see Shmuel Shilo's _Halakhic Leniency
in Modern Responsa Regarding Conversion_ in the Israel Law Review, vol.
22 no. 3, 1988, and Avi Sagi and Zvi Zohar _Giyyur, Jewish Identity and
Modernization_, in Modern Judaism, vol. 15, 1995, pp. 49-69.  It is
clear that there are Orthodox poskim who take a lenient view towards
conversion yet most often when an Orthodox rabbi puts forth a lenient
position on the issue he is labelled as being non-halachic.

Name: Michael and Abby Pitkowsky
E-mail: <pitab@...>


From: Esther Kestenbaum <kesty@...>
Date: Tue,  7 May 96 07:50:15 PDT
Subject: Re: Slit Skirt and Modesty

In response to Russel Hendel's eloquent defense of the slit skirt
discussion: With all due respect, I think many of us are aware (and
concerned) that external appearance has become it's own end rather than
a means to a proper lifestyle. The observant community lends an
increasingly high level of importance to external appearance often in
place of internal substance.

How modest is a woman who believes that if she has a 3 inch slit in her
skirt, all male eyes within a 5 mile radius will be riveted to her to
the detriment of their learning and general concentration., and how
modest are the men if she is right? (I'm reminded here of movies where
blond bombshells are walking down the street and causing car crashes in
their wake) A woman who believes that about herself and her relationship
to stray men has an immodest streak whether she wears hot pants or a
tent dress, and her slit skirt is the least of her problems.

Name: Esther Kestenbaum
E-mail: <kesty@...> (Esther Kestenbaum)


From: Joshua W. Burton <jburton@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 12:06:33 -0500
Subject: Textual drift

Al Silberman writes:

> An article on "Torah codes" appeared in the October 1995 issue of
> Bible Review by Dr. Jeffrey Satinover. In the February 1996 issue he
> offers a long response to many critical letters and addresses this
> issue as well. I will quote only one sentence of his long reply:
> "Because of the aggregate nature of the phenomenon, introducing more
> and more small errors into the text will slowly degrade the robustness
> of the findings, but won't entirely efface them - until a certain
> critical degree of error is exceeded."

With the redundancy, rapid communications, and unprecedented sheer
weight of Torah scholars we now have to anchor us to mesorah, it seems
most unlikely that new errors will creep into our text, barring some
really global calamity.  But now that there are people actually
_studying_ these alleged codes, I would think that it would be
overwhelmingly likely (human nature being what it is) that any future
"small errors" will increase, rather than degrade, their robustness.  Or
even create robustness where none now exists....

  Why are there Braille |======================================================
dots on the keyboard of |  Joshua W. Burton    (847)677-3902    <jburton@...>
the drive-up ATM?       |======================================================


From: Carl and Adina Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:25:12 +0000
Subject: The Wicked Son's Teeth

I wonder if the word "hakheh" comes from the same root as the word
"yikhat" (Genesis 49:10) which Rashi there, based on a Gemara in Yevamos
6 (among other sources) interprets as meaning "to gather".  In that case
the term "Hakheh es shinav" would mean "gather his teeth", i.e. get him
to stay in one place and tell him etc.

Anyone else think that could be the answer?

-- Carl Sherer
Carl and Adina Sherer


From: <eposen@...> (Esther Posen)
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 10:05:07 -0500
Subject: Tzniut for Men and Slits in Skirts

Tzniut for Men

I believe that the reason the halachot regarding women's zniut in dress
are more stringent and explicit than men's halachot is that men and
women have different reactions to attractiveness in the opposite sex.  I
do not believe it is because women stayed at home and never had the
opportunity to meet attractive men (BTW, this is not a logical argument,
since that would mean that halachot for women would not be required
either).  In order to stay within the boundaries of tzniut I will not
articulate what I think the differences are....

Slits in Skirts et. al

If slits in skirts are not halachically proper the fact that they are
required for walking would not be a good enough reason to allow women to
wear these slit skirts (this would be akin to an argument that one could
not swim in clothes that conformed to the halachot of tzniut one could
swim in mixed company - in a bathing suit).  This is not advocating a
postion on the permissibility of this practice, I am just having a
problem understanding this particular line of reasoning.

As far as men finding different modes of dress provocative, I believe
part of the problem is that in our society we are so desensitized by the
display of the physical we consider ourselves immune to such displays.
The laws of tzniut should remind us of the differences between society's
debasing use of the physical and our perspective of the physical as a
manifestation of the soul.

Esther Posen


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 10:19:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tzniut, Slits, etc.

I have stayed out of this until now...

   To reiterate the thoughts of one earlier poster:
   I think that the topic of slits in skirts has gotten **** WAY **** out
   of hand! Some of the postings (which may have been made with 100% pure
   intentions) have made this discussion sound much like the talk of a
   bunch of teenagers at a slumber party.

2) Someone wrote:

    :that Sara pose as his sister), or the mishna in Pirkei Avot about
    :avoiding social intercourse with women, to support the view that even
    :inside of marriage the ideal is to avoid sexual tension.  I would

   The Mishna that I remember says 'al *TARBEH* sicha im *HA*ishsha' --
   and not 'al t'socheach' and 'im nashim' or 'im ishto'...
   If the author of this mishna had wanted to write
   'avoid social intercourse with women'
   he would have done so -- but, he did not.

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://pages.nyu.edu/~jzs7697
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


End of Volume 23 Issue 96