Volume 24 Number 13
                       Produced: Sun May 26 23:39:31 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

B'nai Noach
         [Moshe Goldberg]
Bnei Noach
         [Yosef Branse]
Charging interest on a borrowed credit card
         [Chaim Shapiro]
         [Nachum Chernofsky]
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Inapropriate, yet unavoidable college classes.
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Jewish converts
         [Allie Berman]
Layning / Tikkunim
         [Steve Albert]
Mistakes in Tikkuns
         [Ira Y Rabin]
Prayer text
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
         [Mark Steiner]
         [Al Silberman]
         [Barry Best]
Waltzing Matilda
         [Andy Goldfinger]


From: Moshe Goldberg <mgold@...>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 23:06:27 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: B'nai Noach

> From: <eisenbrg@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
> Does anyone know how to contact the organization that teaches/worships as
> the Torah proscribes for a non-Jew?  I believe it is located in Tennessee.

Emmanuel, P.O.Box 442, Athens, TN 37371-0442, USA. Telephone 615-745-0851.


From: Yosef Branse <JODY@...>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 10:14:58 +0300 (EET-DST)
Subject: RE: Bnei Noach 

Lon Eisenberg asked: 

>Does anyone know how to contact the organization that teaches/worships as
>the Torah proscribes for a non-Jew?  I believe it is located in Tennessee.

There is - or was, it's been inactive for quite some time now, - a  mailing
list on the Jerusalem1 server called RBRANCH, devoted to issues related to Bnei
Noach.  Here is a message I saved from March 1995, which answers Lon's
question. I can't guarantee that the information is still current, but you
might try writing to them. 

"The main center for the BN movement in the United States is Congregation
Emmanuel, a former Baptist Church, in Athens, TN.  Their leader is J. David
Davis.  He publishes a bimonthly journal and knows most of the groups in the
US and elsewhere.  Most of this is quite informal at this stage, small groups
meeting in homes, etc.  Unfortunately Davis is not on the Internet.  His phone
and FAX are: 615-745-0851 (phone) 615-744-9414 (FAX).  P.O. Box 442, Athens, TN
37371-0442. - James Tabor, UNC-Charlotte"

* Yosef (Jody) Branse       University of Haifa Library                    *
* Systems Librarian         Mt. Carmel, Haifa 31905, Israel                *
* Internet/ILAN:            <JODY@...>                           *


From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:53:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Charging interest on a borrowed credit card

	My friend was in need of a loan for an extended period of time.  
Not having enough cash in the bank to lend to him, I told him that he 
can make his purchase with my credit card, and pay it back whenever he 
could.  I made it clear to him, that as far as I am concerned, he is 
borrowing from my credit card, not me, and as such is fully responsible 
for any interest charges that accrue.  Is this a permissable arrangment?  
Chaim Shapiro


From: F5E017%<BARILAN.bitnet@...> (Nachum Chernofsky)
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 12:12 O
Subject: Cheating

I'm surprised that the topic has to be discussed, it's so self-evident.

My father, shlit"a, taughted accounting at Baruch College for 31 years.
His "favorite" tale of "chilul hashem" (the word favorite is "blashon
sagi naor") is the one in which yeshiva students asked for permission
to daven mincha during a test and then proceeded to "shukel" (sway)
back and forth while they were telling each other the answers in the
guise of saying the words of prayer.

And even if someone could possibly come up with a heter for cheating, it
would still be "naval b'rshut hatorah".

 From my experience of teaching in junior high school for 15 years, I
always felt that it was mainly because parents put such a stress on
grades that kids were led to cheat.  I tried giving as many quizzes
as possible during the trimester, so as to lower the weight of any
one test, thereby removing the incentive to cheat on any one question.

As a parent, whenever my kids came home with a report card, I never
looked inside at the grades.  I would ask the kid if he was satisfied
with what he got.  I would then give the kid a ten shekel note and
say "I know you worked hard during the year.  Go out and by yourself

Wishing everyone a happy Shavuot,
Nachum Chernofsky
Bnei Brak


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:22:06 -0400
Subject: Conceiving

In MJ 24#08 Debra Fran Baker brings my quote about the relationship between
stress and fertility:
>> It is well known that psychology (state of mind) can help in conception
>> as many of us heard of women who could not conceive, decided to adopt a
>> child and immediately got pregnent after the pressure was off.

She then says:
>It may be well known, but it is incorrect.  Yes, there are couples who
>have conceived upon adopting a child, but they do so at the same rate as
>couples who have simply ceased infertility treatment or who have not yet
>begun it.  Stress does not cause infertility, nor is the relief of
>stress a cure for it.  This story is one of the most common myths
>around, and is acutely painful for those of us struggling with

Her statement is simply incorrect. Medical research in this field
reached conclusively the same anecdotal statement of mine, that indeed
there is a clear inverse correlation between stress / psychosocial
elements and fertility. See Vartiainen et. al. Psychosocial factors,
female fertility and pregnancy: a prospective study -- Part I:
fertility. _Journal of Psychosom Obstet Gynaecol_, June
1994:15(2),pp. 67-75; Part II: Pregnancy, ibid pp.77-84. I'll be glad to
give more ref. individually as this is beyond the scope of MailJewish.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:23:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Inapropriate, yet unavoidable college classes.

	What does one do when they have to take those one or two College
classes that are inappropriate?  I was twice faced with this dilema.
The first time was in my Junior year.  I was finishing off my history
major with my last course, the age of the Reformation.  Little did I
know, but the Prof decided that he would devote almost 3/4 of the class
to understanding the theological aspects of the Reformation.  I probably
should have dropped the class, considering that I could easily pick up
another history course any semester. (the class was quite humerous it
turns out.  There were two boys in the class with yeshiva backgrounds,
and we asked the Prof question after question while most of the
christian looked on dumdfounded.  Eventually whenever we raised our
hands the prof responded that it was a divine mystery, lets move on!)
	The second instance was a much more sticky situation.  I was in
my last semester taking my very last philosophy (my minor) requirment,
history of ancient philosophy.  Unfortunatly, Northeatern Illinois has a
small philosophy department, and only offers history of philosophy once
a year.  Anyways, the prof decided that we were going to study Plato's
Symposium, an erotic dialouge, which among other things, glorifies
homosexuality.  I choose to remain in the course, knowing that if I
dropped, I would have to wait a full year to graduate.  Did I make the
right decision?  Or, was I required to drop the course wait the year and
hope that the next prof decided to use different subject material?

Chaim Shapiro


From: <berman@...> (Allie Berman)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:40:25 -0400
Subject: Jewish converts

I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
families.  I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
states "honor thy father and thy mother."

Allie Berman


From: <SAlbert@...> (Steve Albert)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:31:46 -0400
Subject: Layning / Tikkunim

 Ira Rabin (MJ 24/9) pointed out that one should *not* rely on the
columns in a tikkun "paralleling" those in a sefer torah; I'd agree, and
add two further comments:
 1.  When possible, I try to use two different tikkunim to prepare;
otherwise I sometimes start to associate a particular trope with a
particular position on the page / in the column, which doesn't help when
I'm layning from a sefer that's not lined up identically.  (This might
be my own shtick, but there it is.)
 2.  When I referred to parallel columns, I didn't mean that the
tikkun's columns matched those in the sefer torah, but rather that the
two columns in the sefer (one is ksav sta"m, the other in regular print
with nikud and trope) lined up, a feature that (for me) facilitates
 Steve Albert (<SAlbert@...>)


From: <irabin@...> (Ira Y Rabin)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:36:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mistakes in Tikkuns

	I just wanted to make one small correction on something I
said. I said that with regard to the tikkun la'korim that the mistake in
Va'yakhel was a missing vaV. The mistake is in fact an extra vav on the
word es, in "es krasav."

My apologies. 



From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 20:35:02 +0200
Subject: Prayer text

This Friday night I noticed, in the Ma'ariv prayer of Magein Avot
(recited by the Chazan and congregation after the Amidah prayer), the
words, "Lefanav na'avod be'yirah vafachad" (literally "before Him we
will serve in awe and fear"), and it occurred to me that the word
"lefanav" seems inappropriate - it would seem more logical that the word
would be "oto" - "Him we will serve ..."

I then wondered if the word "na'avod" might be a typo, with the original
word possibly being "na'avor", thus fitting in perfectly as "we will
pass before Him in ..." (and Daled and Resh are easily interchanged in

I haven't found any support for this in any Siddurim I've looked at, and
wonder if indeed anyone is aware if such a Nusach (version) exists.

           Shmuel Himelstein


From: Mark Steiner <MARKSA@...>
Date: Thu,  23 May 96 10:04 +0200
Subject: Siha

	On the term siha, as in al tarbeh siha `im ha'isha, I believe
that the term often has the connotation of "idle banter" and sometimes
has a sexual connotation (e.g. before engaging in marital relations, the
amoraim engaged in "siha" with their wives).  Thus, although the
translation "gossip" may be misleading, I do not believe that hazal had
"conversation" in mind in that Mishnah (cf. also Hirsch's translation of
Aboth).  This same goes for "mi`ut siha" (restricting "siha") which we
find in Aboth as a recipe for the acquisition of Torah.
	Also, a number of ancient mss. of the Mishnah make it clear that
the "isha" in question is a menstruous one.  Cf. for example the
Kaufmann Codex of the Mishnah.


From: <asilberman@...> (Al Silberman)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:25:22 -0500
Subject: Translations

In MJ v25n05 "crp <chips@...>" writes:
>Finally, in regards to translations - let us not forget that Targum
>Shivim is not a highlight of Jewish History and is one of the reasons
>for fasting.

The statement about fasting on the eighth day of Teves due to the Greek
translation of the Torah made by the "Shivim" is found in the "Ma'mar
Acharon" (Final Statement?) of Megillas Ta'anis. It would seem from the
statement that the translation of the Torah into another language is
cause for a fast. There would seem to be support for this interpretation
from the gemara in Megilla 3a. The gemara there says that the whole
country of Israel quaked when Yonathan ben Uziel translated Nevi'im into
aramaic and he was prevented from translating Kesuvim into
aramaic. (However, there doesn't seem to have been any objection to
Onkelos' translation of the Torah.)

However, the gemara in Shabbos 88b says that at the time of mattan Torah
at Mt. Sinai the words of G-d went out in seventy languages. It would,
therefore, seem that there is nothing wrong with translating the Torah
into other languages.

This bothered me and I decided several years ago to ask both my Rav and
my former Rosh Hayeshiva about this. They both responded similarly that
the problem was not the translation per se but the fact that the
"Shivim" decided on altering the translation of some of the words. It is
the alterations which "brought darkness into the world".

As for the gemara in Megilla I believe that a careful reading shows that
the problem was with the additional commentary which Yonathan ben Uziel
added to the translation. The translation of Kesuvim into aramaic was
also eventually done at the time of the Tanaim by someone other than
Yonathan ben Uziel.


From: Barry Best <bbest@...>
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:20:00 EDT
Subject: Trop

>From: <irabin@...> (Ira Y Rabin)

>There is a difference in the way they [the kadma and the pashta] are sung, 
> yet most balley kriah (myself included :) ) often don't make the distinction

Not only baalay k'riah, but many if not most people mistakenly read the
"Baruch" in the b'rachah before the haftorah as though it had a pashta.
It should be read with a kadmah.


From: Andy Goldfinger <andy_goldfinger@...>
Date: 23 May 1996 14:57:08 -0400
Subject: Waltzing Matilda

My daughter was married last weekend to Mr. David Stein from Sydney,
Australia (mazel tov!).  In keeping with the dignity of the occasion, I
sang Waltzing Matilda in Yiddish (while wearing, of course, a gorilla
suit).  The translation was prepared by Raphael Finkel of the University
of Kentucky, to whom I am grateful.  Due to the expected demand, he has
made the translation available on the web.  It can be found at the URL:



End of Volume 24 Issue 13