Volume 24 Number 16
                       Produced: Mon May 27 19:55:37 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

411 question
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Changing Meaning based on Notes/Trop
         [Gershon Dubin]
Devorim Betailim?
         [Warren Burstein]
El Al Kashruth
         [Neil Peterman]
hearing aids
         [Andrea Penkower Rosen]
Influences on Orthodox customs
         [Hadassa Cooper]
Kadma in the blessings for the Haphtara
         [Israel Pickholtz]
Kiddush on Friday night
         [Martin N. Penn]
Legitimate Psak in the face of Conservative Practice
         [Arnold Samet]
Rings and Washing
         [Edwin R Frankel]
         [Esther Posen]
Tikun question
         [Rick Turkel]
Waltzing Matilda
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Weddings (2)
         [Arala Fendrich, Avi Feldblum]
Woman's Handshake
         [Binyomin Segal]
Yichus of Moshiach
         [Zvi Weiss]


From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:46:02 -0400
Subject: 411 question

      Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...> asks:
<<	I have two visually impaired siblings.  As such, our home phone 
>line recieves free 411- directory service.
>	My question, is may other members of the family use the 411 
>service as well?  Please note that the phone Co. does not ask who is 
>calling when responding to a 411 call>>
           Why haven't you just picked up the phone and asked the phone
   <Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Thu, 09 May 96 16:57:00 -0400
Subject: Changing Meaning based on Notes/Trop

> What happens when the above two principles contradict each other.  If
> a note mistake blatantly changes the meaning or sense of a verse should
> the baal koray be corrected. 
	You'd have a lot of bar mitzvah boys in tears.  Seriously, all
halachic sources discuss changes in meaning occasioned by changes in
nikud (vowelization); later discussions involve accents and are not
conclusive.  The idea of changing the meaning by the notes is not
mentioned; it is not an objective change but one in the mind of the
listener and as such should not be corrected.

<gershon.dubin@...>        |
http://www.medtechnet.com/~dubinG   |
consultants in CLIA/OSHA compliance |


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 20:58:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Devorim Betailim?

I would like to suggest that the reason that each message has its own
subject line, is so that we can each read those messages that interest
us.  No one is required to read each message, and the best way to see
more messages that you find interesting is to post on those topics
in which you are interested.


From: <npms@...> (Neil Peterman)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 16:55:18 +0400
Subject: El Al Kashruth

I am replying to Percy Mett's question about the availability of meals under
the supervision of the Eda Charedis (Bedatz) on El Al flights out of Tel
Aviv (Vol 24/6).    El Al have today put out a notice to all travel agents
in Israel advising that with immediate effect "Bedatz" meals are available
on all departures out of Ben Gurion.

[Wow, mail-jewish must be more effective than I thought! :-) Mod.]

Neil Peterman
48 Shaulson Street #9
Jerusalem, Israel
Fax: +972-2-251954


From: Andrea Penkower Rosen <apr@...>
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:59:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: hearing aids

Not too long ago I read a posting indicating that there were halakhic 
bases for selecting a particular kind of hearing aid battery for shabbat use.
At the time, this had no particular significance for me and I did not 
save the information.  Now I would appreciate having it.

If anyone has a copy of this posting or any other relevant information,
would they please e-mail it to me? 

Andrea Penkower Rosen


From: Hadassa Cooper <hershco@...>
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:16:23 +1000
Subject: Influences on Orthodox customs

Two instances come to mind of Orthodox custom being influenced by the
customs of the outside world:
1) Despite there being no halachic impediment, the Chatam Sofer did not
allow marriages to take place in Shul because of the newly-instituted Reform
custom to do so.
2) Even though decorating the Shul with greenery on Shavuot is mentioned in
the Yerushalmi, the Vilna Gaon did not practise this custom because of
Christian rituals being associated with greenery.



From: Israel Pickholtz <rotem@...>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 07:19:21 +0300
Subject: Kadma in the blessings for the Haphtara

From: Barry Best <bbest@...>

>Not only baalay k'riah, but many if not most people mistakenly read the
>"Baruch" in the b'rachah before the haftorah as though it had a pashta.
>It should be read with a kadmah.

As a matter of fact - since you already brought up the subject - the
construction generally printed for the berachot has no other like it in
Tanach.  The only time we ever have two pashta (in this case on "H-shem"
and on "E'") on the same zaqef is when they are proceded by a revi'a.
The ta'amim on the berach should probably be

	kadma  ve'azla revi'a, pashta   munnakh   zaqef
	baruch   atta  H-shem, Elokeinu  melech   ha'olam

 Israel Pickholtz
 Student of Mechel Perlman z"l


From: Martin N. Penn <74542.346@...>
Date: 26 May 96 22:26:58 EDT
Subject: Kiddush on Friday night

Could someone point me in the direction of finding where it says that
the person making kiddush in shul on Friday night SHOULD drink the wine?
I looked up the Mishnah Brurah (S'if 269, simin 1) where it says that
the preference is for the one making Kiddush NOT to drink the wine.  It
should be given to a katan shehigia l'hinuh (a minor who has reached the
age to be taught) so that the blessing is not in vain.  If there is no
katan shehigia l'hinuh, then the one who made the kiddush should drink,
but this is not the PREFERRED method.

Martin Penn


From: Arnold Samet <samet@...>
Date: 13 May 96 16:01:00 -0400
Subject: Legitimate Psak in the face of Conservative Practice

>And I think that often in modern times Orthodoxy avoids lenient but
>halachically legitimate psak because Conservatism already does it, and
>Orthodoxy doesn't want to be seen as "conceding" to Conservatism.

>   ... And if so, is this a halchically legitimate reason
>for avoiding a halachically legitimate psak?

 I vaguely recall an article written in Hebrew during the 1980's by
Rabbi Herschel Shacter (Yeshiva University). He cites his rebbe, Rabbi
Soleveichik as holding that a particular, otherwise tenable practice,
was tainted (there was a comparison to avodah zarah) because it was
identified with conservatism. Rabbi Schacter applied this principle in
discussing innovations motivated by secular feminism.

In a related vein, there is a teshuva in Igros Moshe (R. Moshe
Feinstein, z"l) regarding woman wearing taleisim. _In the context of
this shaila_, R.Moshe was against the practice. In his view, it was
motivated by a secular feminist agenda and disparaged women of earlier
generations (motzi laz al rishonim), suggesting that their religious
level was deficient.

Yitzchok Samet


From: <frankele@...> (Edwin R Frankel)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 17:30:03 -0700
Subject: Rings and Washing

From: Schwartz Adam <adams@...>
>Does anyone know the source for NOT removing rings
>for washing?  I've seen/heard that many people, who rarely if ever take
>off their rings for anything, are not required to remove them
>for washing Netilat Yadayim.  What defines a Hatzitza for this case?

I don't remember exactly where, but in the Aruch Hashulchan, in Hilcot
netilat yadaim, he brings forth the concept of washing without removing
of rings for persons who do not normally remove their rings at other

Ed Frankel


From: <eposen@...> (Esther Posen)
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 09:27:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Shidduchim

I find it ridiculous to slander whole groups of "boys" and "girls" in a
forum like this.  People, individually and in groups, are free to search
for whatever they wish to in a mate be it money, looks, personality,
lucrative professions or full time devotion to torah learning.

In practice, this is a system that follows the general laws of supply
and demand.  Sometimes the demand for a particular quality exceeds the
supply - like the supply of wealthy girls whose parents are looking for
a guy to support.  Most often, after much graying of parents etc.,
things work out.  When they don't, and the not so young anymore orthodox
jewish single community is growing, the lack of money cannot be cited as
the most common quality of orthodox singles.

As for the fellows who bemoan the lack of girls looking for yeshivish
working guys - which I imagine means guys in black hats who work and
hopefully keep some regular seder- that is exactly the kind of guy who
was in short supply when my friends were looking.

esther posen


From: <rturkel@...> (Rick Turkel)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 01:00:08 -0400
Subject: Tikun question

Apropos the discussion of the merits and flaws of various tikunim, I'd
like to know if there's a tikun out there that marks the qematzim
qetanim?  This is always a problem for those who use sefardic
pronunciation, since they aren't always obvious.  I have a copy of
_Ba`al haqeriya_ by Michael Bar-Lev, which contains this information
(along with all the Masoretic notes), but it would be much easier to
work from a tikun where they were marked (e.g., the way the Rinat
Yisrael siddur has them, with a longer vertical).  I know that no such
beast existed three years ago, at least as far as any of the large
booksellers in Ge'ula (Jerusalem) knew.

Thanks for your help.

Rick Turkel         (___  _____  _  _  _  _  __     _  ___   _   _  _  ___
<rturkel@...>)oh.us|   |  \  )  |/  \     |    |   |   \__)    |
<rturkel@...>        /      |  _| __)/   | ___)    | ___|_  |  _(  \    |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money.  Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:32:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Waltzing Matilda

In v24n13, Andy Goldfinger wrote:
> My daughter was married last weekend to Mr. David Stein from Sydney,
> Australia (mazel tov!).  In keeping with the dignity of the occasion, I
> sang Waltzing Matilda in Yiddish (while wearing, of course, a gorilla
> suit).  The translation was prepared by Raphael Finkel of the University
> of Kentucky, to whom I am grateful.  Due to the expected demand, he has
> made the translation available on the web.  It can be found at the URL:
> http://al.cs.engr.uky.edu/~raphael/yiddish/matilde.gif

Mazal Tov indeed!  (I remember YOUR wedding!)  At the first opportunity,
I will check out the translation!  And for a piece of trivia.... did you
know that the tune to "Waltzing Matilda" is almost identical to the
Protestant hymn "Bringing in the Sheaves" ?  :-)

Which reminds me, has anyone ever noticed that you can put almost ANY
tune to "Shir Ha-Maalos"?  Waltzing Matilda, This Land is Your Land,
Simple Gifts... tunes from anywhere in the world.  And davka, Shir
Ha-Maalos is about returning to OUR land (and hence our own culture,

Freda Birnbaum


From: <kermit@...> (Arala Fendrich)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:57:40 -0400
Subject: Weddings

        I was just at a wedding where right before the Chasan broke the
glass, the Rabbi anounced that at the request of the Kallah, and the
generous consent of the Chasan, they would like to take a moment to remember
the Kallah's father who had passed away. Just as I was expecting the Rabbi
to give an appropiate D'Var Torah, the Chazan starts singing Kayl Malei!
Since I had never heard of such a thing before, I admit I was rather
surprised. My reasoning that this should NOT have been done is: If on the
day of the wedding and during the week of Sheva Brachos, Tachanun is not
said, how can you say it at the wedding?
        If my reasoning is flawed and if anyone knows a source for this, can
you please let me know since I am really curious and because my father
passed away a year and a half ago and if this is something that should be
done, i would like to know.
        Thanks a lot.

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:21:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Weddings

At my first marriage, right after I walked down, and before the
kallah walked down, a Kayl Malei was sung for my mother, who had passed
away. (It was sung by a fellow list member, actually). Among the people
at the wedding were Rav Soloveichek and Rabbi Lipshitz. I at least had
not heard that they expressed any objections.

Avi Feldblum


From: <bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:38:05 -0500
Subject: Woman's Handshake

Those responding to the question about a man & woman's handshake have
been pretty unanimous in its acceptability. certainly all the sources
they used - and others - permit a man shaking a woman's hand.

yet the sources are far from unanimous. rav moshe - at the end of a long
tshuva (eh vol1 #56) where he discusses the issues of ngia (touching)
and hirhur (thoughts) concludes with the following:

 * and in the issue that i see that there are those who are lenient even from
 * the G-d fearing to give their hand to a woman when she has extended hers -
 * perhaps they think that this is not a manner of demonstrating affection and
 * desire - however in practice it is difficult to rely on this



From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:52:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yichus of Moshiach

> From: Andy Goldfinger <andy_goldfinger@...>

 For more elaboration, see Malbim at the end of the Book of Rus; Also,
see the Commentary of the Netziv on the story of TaMar and Yehuda in
Genesis.  For an overview on the idea of "sneaking souls", also see the
Or Hachaim on the portion of "Yefa To'ar" (the non-Jewish lady captured
in war) in the book of Devarim.



End of Volume 24 Issue 16