Volume 24 Number 22
                       Produced: Tue May 28 21:35:06 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Ben Noach
         [Hillel E. Markowitz]
Days schools and children with special needs
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Devorim Betailim
         [Tara Cazaubon]
Lefanav Na'avod
         [Yaakov Azose]
Mikveh after Menopause
         [David Mescheloff]
Pausing in Shemoneh Esrai
         [Moishe Kimelman]
Prayer text in Magein Avot
         [Adam Schwartz]
Prayer text of Magein Avot
         [Adam Schwartz]
Prayer text- le'fanav na'avod
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
         [Moshe Stern]
         [Arthur J Einhorn]
Waiting until age 3
         [Mandy G. Book]


From: Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@...>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 16:30:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Ben Noach

On Thu, 23 May 1996, Lon Eisenberg wrote:
> Does anyone know how to contact the organization that teaches/worships as
> the Torah proscribes for a non-Jew?  I believe it is located in Tennessee.

The following was pulled out of the soc.culture.jewish FAQ

   The term "_Noachide_" describes groups, generally founded by rabbis,
   for the purpose of making non-Jews aware of their obligations
   _according to Torah_. These groups observe the commandments in the
   seven categories, and do not follow the tenets of non-Jewish

   See "The Root and Branch Noachide Guide," a 104 page paperback by
   Aryeh Gallin (<gallin@...>), that can be ordered from:

    The Root and Branch Association, Ltd.
    504 Grand Street, #E51
    New York, NY 10002-4101

   Suggested donation is $10.

   There is a mailing list to discuss the Noachide Movement. To
   subscribe, send a message to <listserv@...> with the following as
   the body of the message:

        sub rbranch your_full_name

   Note: I am unsure if the list is still around. If someone knows its
   status for sure, please let me know.

   Also see The Path of the Righteous Gentile by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov
   Rogalsky, Targum Press/Feldheim, 1987.

   In Northern New Jersey contact Rabbi Saul Zucker at the Frisch Academy
   in Paramus. In Athens, Tennessee contact Rev. J. David Davis.

   The best known Noachide is archaeologist Vendyl Jones, model for the
   "Indiana Jones" character of movie fame. Like his fictional
   counterpart, Vendyl Jones is also trying to locate vessels from the
   Temple, especially near its site in Jerusalem.

|  Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz |     Im ain ani li, mi li?      |
|   <H.E.Markowitz@...>   |   V'ahavta L'raiecha kamocha   |


From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:22:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Days schools and children with special needs

	I feel that it is very important for our Orthodox days schools
to make all reasonable accomidations to facilitate schooling for as many
of our children as possible.  But, how should reasonable be defined?  At
what point can we say that although we understand your child has a
disability, we can not allow him in our school.  Many schools have
special programs for children with special needs, which is a wonderful
thing.  But what of children with special needs that are as, or even
more advanced then the majority of their classmates?  Tourette syndrome
a nuerological based disorder which causes among other things, motor and
vocal tics, is a perfect example.  At what point shall we say that
although the tourettic student is at the top of his class, his motor and
vocal tics are too much of a distraction to the other students?  This
can be even more clearly ilustrated by the most severe form of tourettes
syndrome, coprollalia, which causes its sufferers to shout obscenities
	The philosophy of most secular schools is full inclusion,
regardless of what the student's individual needs are.  This goes
without saying for students whose disabilities do not affect their
individual classroom performance and ability .  Should our day schools
follow suit?  Or should the concern be for the overall classroom

Chaim Shapiro


From: Tara Cazaubon <tarac@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:30:03 -0700
Subject: Devorim Betailim

I have to say that I agree with Yosey Goldstein.  The spate of recent
discussions on kollel, agunot, etc. (not to mention slit skirts!) got a
bit long-winded and vindictive, and IMHO did not contribute anything
useful.  I regret that I posted my feelings about Orthodox men to the
list and have promised myself to reply only to posts where I can
contribute factual information or elucidate a discussion.

These discussions have produced a lot more heat than light, and I look
forward to more intellectual material and less hype in the future.

Tara Cazaubon


From: Yaakov Azose <yazose@...>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:38:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Lefanav Na'avod

One writer questioned the use of the word "Lefanav" in the phrase 
"Lefanav Na'avod Beyirah vafa'had" of the Friday night Tefillah. 
According to the writer, it should have said "Oto Na'avod...". 
Perhaps we can find an answer from the Aramaic equivalent. In Oonkelos's 
translation/commentary on the Torah, we consistantly find a similar word 
used when referring to serving Hashem. For example, in the second 
Perashah of the Shema, we have the word "Ool'ovdo", which Oonkelos has as 
"Oolmifla'h Kodamohi" (and to serve before Him). Many other such 
examples exist as well.

Yaakov Azose


From: David Mescheloff <meschd@...>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 00:15:00 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Mikveh after Menopause

Apropos of the recent discussion of mikveh after menopause, here are two
brief bits of information:
1)   A lovely flyer titled "Go to the Mikvah (sic) at my age?  Isn't it
too late for that?" was  published several years ago by the committee on
Jewish Family Purity of N'shei Chabad at 770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn
(phone on the pamphlet: 212-493-0571 or 778-1070).  The flyer is in good
taste (read: suits my taste, more or less), and includes the following
statements: "if you are past menopause, why not go to a Mikvah *just one
final time* and enjoy the rest of your married life together in the
comforting knowledge that you have done the right thing."  The flyer might
be helpful for the woman who wanted to suggest this to another.

2)   My parents, Rabbi Dr. and Mrs. Moses Mescheloff Shlita of Chicago,
just sent me an interesting article from an American Jewish newspaper with
the title: "Reform women 'taking back the water' as they discover new
meaning in the mikveh".  The story tells of an article in the Spring Issue
of Reform Judaism Magazine written by a Reform woman, who wrote, inter
alia:  "immersion brings the woman physically close to G-d to sanctify her
for what follows - that is, physical reunion with her spouse.  I saw in
this a commandment directed specifically at women designed to sanctify
marriage, too."  The gentle "mikveh lady" was her guide, and helped the
woman overcome her fears.  "... the twelve days of abstention are hard,
but they have their rewards.  Obviously, deprivation makes you appreciate
what you have taken for granted.  And being thus separated while still
having the same amount of time together has heightened our appreciation of
the rest of our marriage.  I think of the twelve days also as a kind of
fast, giving thanks to G-d for fertility, for marriage, and even for sex,
none of which would exist without G-d's endless love of humankind."     
We surely live in moshiach's tzeiten!

David Mescheloff


From: Moishe Kimelman <kimel@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 21:37:07 +1000
Subject: Pausing in Shemoneh Esrai

In # 14 Martin Penn writes:

> 1) In R'zeh.  How many people pause after V'Eshay Yisrael instead of

The Gr"a in Orach Chaim siman 120 writes that the correct meaning of the
phrases in that part of Shemoneh Esrai is "and return the service to your
house and (return also) the offerings of Yisrael".  Thus, according to the
Gr"a, the pause *should* be after V'ishai Yisrael.


From: Adam Schwartz <adams@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 16:50:15 +0300
Subject: Re: Prayer text in Magein Avot

just a little addendum to what i previously wrote.

I should have been more clear in my opinion that in Magein Avot "Lfanav
Na'avod" is not a typo.  Magein Avot is a bracha that is M'ein Sheva
like the seven brachot of the Friday night Amidah. 'Lefanav Na'avod',
acc to its placement and topic serves as a quasi-repetition to the
bracha of the Avodah in the Amidah.

So Na'avod is exactly how the phrase should read.  the word Na'avod
means we will serve and the Avodah means the service.  the shoresh=root
Ayin-Bet-Daled is in the Chatima=closing of the bracha=blessing in the
nusach eretz yisrael (version of the prayers acc to practice in Israel
until the crusades) and is still in the chatima of the bracha prior to
duchening=blessing of priests in galus=the exile.  It seems to make
sense that Magein Avot should read na'avod.  (i don't remember if lfanav
is there also).

but check out the article.  someone in YU should be able to look it up
for you.  maybe it's in the YU liturgical journal.  sorry i cant
remember where.

A question that interests me is why in the closing of the bracha do the
nusach ashkenaz and sefarad just ask for a "return of His presence to
Zion" and not for the restoration of the temple service?  i know its in
the body of the bracha but why not the chatima, and doesn't "everything
follow the chatima"?  doesn't our current version ask for less?  does
that mean anything?  was the israelite community more forthright in
their demands of GD?  why was it purposely redacted as a more general
return of GD as opposed to a specific request for the restoration of the
temple service?



From: Adam Schwartz <adams@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:51:19 +0300
Subject: Re: Prayer text of Magein Avot

Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...> asked about
"Lefanav na'avod be'yirah vafachad" in Magein Avot.

No i dont know of any nusach like the one you propose, but here is some
info which may direct your search.  (If this is obvious to you, then my
apologies for wasting your time).  Since Magein Avot is sort of like a
repetition of the amidah for friday nights, the question is what bracha
of the seven does "Lefanav na'avod be'yirah vafachad" represent?

here's a breakdown of the "MeEin Sheva"

1. magein avot
2. mchayeh meitim
3. hae-l hakadosh
4.  ... byom shabbat kadsho ... mkadesh hashabbat...
5. lfanav na'avod
6. vnodeh lishmo
7. adon hashalom 

number 5 takes the place of "Hamachazir Schinato Ltzion". so now the
question is why change that phrase if the rest, the other 6, are so
close in phrasing to what they summarize?  In Hutz Laaretz, during
Chazarat hashatz of musaf on a Regel, just before birkat cohanim, the
bracha of "hamachazir schinato" is changed to one that is very similar
to the phrase we use in magein avot.  (I'm happy to say that I dont have
a siddur with H'ul davening handy, but i think the phrase is
"...sheOtcha be'yirah na'avod...?"  someone will correct me i'm sure)

it turns out that this phrasing is very similar to that of Nusach Eretz
Yisrael that was used until the crusades basically wiped out the nusach.

the reason why we mimic or switch to nusach eretz yisrael by birkat
cohanim is obvious; daily birkat cohanim can only be done in israel, so
why not use the local nusach.

but why mimic nusach eretz yisrael by magein avot?
(below is what i remember hearing from a talmud chacahm who is a tefilla
expert.  i never learned this inside.  my transmission will probably be faulty
here. sorry)

2 essential points.
 1. some rishon, the "shaarei tshuvah"?, holds that, even according to
those that say Arvit is a Rshut=(optional) during the week, it is a
Chov=(requirement) on friday night.

2. i seem to remember that there is a machloket bavli yerushalmi on this
issue and the yerushalmi holds arvit is a Chov every night.  Also assume
that the yerushalmi represented local practice or was psak for the local

now lets say that arvit on friday night is at least more 'official' then
on regular nights.  This is easily defensible because we have no custom
of a quasi-repetition of the shomeh esrei on Sat-Thurs nights, just
Friday nights.

If its official, the we should repeat the amidah.  As long as we're
repeating the amidah, then lets use the nusach of eretz yisrael in our
repetition, since the people who davened this nusach davened arvit on
every night as if it were a Chov.

(i probably butchered the authors dvar torah so i wont quote bshem omro)

this piece can be found in a much more coherent form in one of the
hundreds of Yeshiva University journals of the Cantorial Training

Back to your original question of if "lfanav" should be replaced by
"Oto": Oto does sound more like the Galus version of the bracha i
remember, "shOtcha .....".

parenthetically, lefanav might also have connotations of location, as in
"before Him [i.e., in Israel at the Bet Hamikdash] we'll serve Him.."
this is the phrase which is me'ein the avodah bracha, "Rtzei...VHashev
et Haavodah...", right?  so lfanav makes sense to me also.



From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:58:22 -0400
Subject: Prayer text- le'fanav na'avod

Tefilat Magen Avot is a substitute for the repetition of the amida, and
it is called "me'eyin sheva" since it is a reminder of the seven
berachot of the Shabbat amidah. You will therefore notice that it
mentions the 1. Avot, 2.  Mechaye meitim, 3. ata kadosh [the first three
berachot of the shabbat amida] and then the last four berachot of the
Shabbat amidah. The 'retze' section in the amida is called
'avoda'. Therefore there is no possibility of 'resh' - 'daled' switch
since we specifically need here the term avoda.

I found in the Bible two cases where 'avoda' is connected with
'lefanav', and therefore, we don't have even a gramatical
problem. "la'avod et avodat hashem lefanav" (Jos. 22:27), and "Ivdu et
hashem be'simcha, bo'u lefanav bi'rnanah" (Psal.100:2)

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Moshe Stern <MSTERN@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 09:16:00 CDT
Subject: Tattoo

I would appreciate any information on the popular conception that a tattoo 
bars one from regular burial.


Moshe Stern


From: Arthur J Einhorn <0017801@...>
Date: 28 May 1996 12:14:12 GMT
Subject: Tefillin

I am curious to know if there are any tefillin, mezzuzos, or sifrei
Torah that predate the Bais Yosef and Ari that show which style was used

Ahron Einhorn


From: Mandy G. Book <mbook@...>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 20:05:27 -0500 ()
Subject: Waiting until age 3

Does anyone know of the textual source for refraining from cutting boys' 
hair until they turn three?  Is this just custom, or is it truly required?

-- Mandy Book


End of Volume 24 Issue 22