Volume 24 Number 25
                       Produced: Fri May 31 19:17:47 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

411 and Advanced talmudic Methods
         [Russell Hendel]
A Thought On Matan Torah
         [Warren Burstein]
Census (m-j 24 #17)
         [Aryeh Frimer]
Chazarat Hashatz of Mussaf on YomTov
         [Jerrold Landau]
Early Tefillin
         [Adam Schwartz]
Ein Dorshin
         [David Riceman]
Email and Faxes on Shabbat
         [Russell Hendel]
Kel Malei at weddings
         [Jerrold Landau]
Mistakes in davening
         [susan hornstein]
Not Practicing Customs because of similarity to Christian practice
         [Hillel E. Markowitz]
Rav Aviner's Divrei Torah in French on line
         [Nicolas Rebibo]
         [Eli Turkel]
Shivat Tzion
         [Dave Curwin]
Singing during Tefillah
         [Lisa Halpern]
         [Gilad J. Gevaryuahu]
Waltzing Matilda
         [Art Werschulz]


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:56:37 -0400
Subject: 411 and Advanced talmudic Methods

In amusing response to questions on use of a 411 line in a house where
visually impaired children can use it [Chaiyim Shpairo, Vol 23 #99;
Janice Gel Vol 24 #07] let me cite the classical *object-person*
distinction which everyone beginning advanced talmud quickly learns.

The permissability to use a 411 line is clearly a permissability in the
object (cheftzah) and not in the people using it (Gavrah).  Hence all
people may legally use the phone.

Of course the reason for interpreting the law this way is because one
cannot enforce a permissability on people.

Therefore a LIFNIM MESHURATH HADIN would require that people with good
sight not use it.

To support this I quote the famous story about the Chafetz Chayim who
would tear up a stamp when ever a messenger would bring him a letter in
order not to deprive the Russian government of the revenue they should
have received (had mail vs a messenger) been used.  Clearly this is
Lifnim meshurah hadin.

Just thought I would practice my "lamdus skills" in public.

Russell Hendel, rhendel @ mcs . drexel . edu


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:58:19 GMT
Subject: Re: A Thought On Matan Torah

Two resolutions I know of (I do not recall the sources) are

1) We voluntarily accepted the Torah, but God held the mountain over our
heads to indicate that we may not later change our minds.

2) The Midrash is not describing a geological event, but is symbolic of
compulsion which actually consisted of all the miracles performed for us
after which we wouldn't have been capable of refusing the Torah even had
we wanted.


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 08:36 O
Subject: Census (m-j 24 #17)

Elozor Preil's suggestion that numbers are rounded to the nearest fifty
because that is the size of an army unit - appears in "Titen Emet
le-Ya'akov" by rav yaakov Kaminetsky zatsal and in the Malbim regarding
"ve-Chamushim alu bnai Yisrael me-erets mitzraim" which would mean that
that the Israelites left Egypt in army formation.


From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 09:57:12 EDT
Subject: Chazarat Hashatz of Mussaf on YomTov

Adam Schwartz mentions that the nusach of 'hamachazir schinato letzion'
is changed to 'sheotcha beyira naavod' before the Birchat Kohahim
(Priestly Blessing) of Mussaf on Yomtov.  The nusach of this beracha is
actually 'sheotcha levadcha beyira naavod', and is by no means
universal.  In nusach Ashkenaz, it is commonly said, however in nusach
sefarad, more often than not the regular conclusion of the beracha is
used (although I have seen machzorim with it printed in both ways).  I
believe that those who follow the minhagim of the GRA use the regular
ending.  As well, I believe that Rav Yosha Ber Soloveitchik preferred
(insisted on) the regular ending.  Thus, the minhag outside of Israel is
somewhat undefined.  There is similar unclarity regarding the changing
of 'hamevareich et amo yisrael bashalom' to 'oseh hashalom' on the
aseret yemei teshuva.  Again, I believe that the GRA and Rav
Soloveitchik both objected to changing the regular nussach, and there is
by no means a universal minhag.

Jerrold Landau


From: Adam Schwartz <adams@...>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:46:33 +0300
Subject: Early Tefillin

regrading the question of early tefillin:

i've heard that israeli acrheologists have found tefillin on both
Massada and in the Bar Kochba caves.  these tefillin seem to follow both
Rashi and Rabbenu Tam traditions.



From: <dr@...> (David Riceman)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 08:38:51 +0400
Subject: Ein Dorshin

While it is true that many commentators (e.g. the maharal) take arayoth
[usually meaning illicit sexual relations] to refer to a branch of
kabbalah everyone, from the Talmud to the shulhan aruch, take it
literally as a halachic decision as well.  This is a good example of ein
mikra yotzei midei pshuto [the literal meaning of every text stands]
applying not only to the Bible but also to halacha.

David Riceman


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:03:31 -0400
Subject: Email and Faxes on Shabbat

In response to [Pickholtz, V 24 #08] who asks about the permissability
of say sending a fax after shabbath in one place that is received on
shabbath in another place:

Last year (1995) I was Visiting Assistant Professor of Actuarial Science
at the University of Louisville. The Marah DeAthrah of Louisville, Rabbi
Avrohom Litvin actually discussed this with me.

He pointed out that the electric current has to reformulate itself into
written words for both the Fax and Email.  Consequently the received Fax
and Email has the status of an egg that was born on Yom Tov (Nolad).

In particular all laws concerning reading it on or after shabbath have
the same status as the use of an egg that was "born" on shabbath.

I believe Rabbi LItvin may have quoted some other source which I
unfortunately now forget.

Russell Hendel, rhendel @ mcs . drexel . edu


From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 12:02:58 EDT
Subject: Kel Malei at weddings

A few days ago, I posted indicating that I had not heard of the custom
of reciting Kel Malei at weddings.  Rabbe Ely Braun of Ottawa has
pointed out to me that indeed such a custom is documented in 'Made in
Heaven -- A Jewish Wedding Guide' by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan.  Page 1644
states "If any of the parents of the bride or groom are deceased, it is
a custom to recite the praye Kel Maley Rachamim for the parent before
the ceremony.".  The notes refer to Eduth LeYisrael 9:5, and Netzutzey
Zohar 3:219b-6.  Thank you Rabbi Braun for pointing this out.

Jerrold Landau


From: <susanh@...> (susan hornstein)
Date: 30 May 1996   9:55 EDT
Subject: Mistakes in davening

While we're venting about mistakes in the davening, may I add my
"favorite" (read, "most incredibly annoying") one:
In the R'tzei paragraph of the Shabbat Amidot and Friday night
"not really Chazarat Ha'Sha"tz" -  "Va'yanuchu vo/va Yisrael"
instead of "V'yanuchu" -- This changes the meaning to past tense
"Israel rested" rather than "so that Israel may rest" -- kind of
a continuous/future tense.  

This is a big deal, and is even reminiscent of the changes made by the
Conservative movement in the Musaf service, where they changed all the
verb tenses regarding future observance of Korbanot/sacrifices to past
tense, in order to call off philosophical commitment to the return of
such observances (and also changed pronouns from "us" to "them" to
distance the commandments from the davener).
"vatitzavenu" (commanded us) became "vatitzavem" (commanded them) 
"v'sham na'aseh" (and we will do there) became "she'sham asu" (that 
       they did there)
"chovoteinu" (our obligation) became "chovoteihem" (their obligation)
"na'seh v'nakriv" (we shall do and we shall sacrifice) became "asu 
       v'hikrivu" (they did and they sacrificed)
(more subtly) "k'mo shekatavta aleinu" (as You wrote regarding us)
       became simply "k'mo shekatavta" (as You wrote)

So, speak to your ba'al tefillah.  Do it today!
Susan Hornstein


From: Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@...>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 23:06:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Not Practicing Customs because of similarity to Christian practice

>        Hadassa Cooper <hershco@...> wrote that <<Even though
> decorating the Shul with greenery on Shavuot is mentioned in the Yerushalmi,
> the Vilna Gaon did not practise this custom because of Christian rituals
> being associated with greenery.>>

Our Rabbi looked this up on Shavuos and found that the Gaon only referred 
to the use of trees, not flowers or greenery in general.  Apparently it 
was due to the use of trees specifically for their holiday.

|  Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz |     Im ain ani li, mi li?      |
|   <H.E.Markowitz@...>   |   V'ahavta L'raiecha kamocha   |


From: <nre@...> (Nicolas Rebibo)
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:35:11 +0200
Subject: Rav Aviner's Divrei Torah in French on line


Commentaries on the weekly parasha by Rav Aviner, the head of the Ateret
Cohanim yechiva in Jerusalem, are available at http://www.col.fr/aviner

These commentaries, in French, were published in his book "Fleur de Feu".

Nicolas Rebibo
 Communaute On Line: La voix de la communaute Juive de France
<col@...>                                 http://www.col.fr


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:03:17 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Shidduchim

       Esther Posen writes
>> I find it ridiculous to slander whole groups of "boys" and "girls" in a
>> forum like this.  People, individually and in groups, are free to search
>> for whatever they wish to in a mate be it money, looks, personality,
>> lucrative professions or full time devotion to torah learning.

   The Chafetz Chaim in his laws of "Lashon ha-ra" explicitly lists
slandering whole groups as being prohibited. So it much worse than just
being ridiculous. As to her main point it was already made by the Mishna
concerning the women who went out on Tu be-av (15th day of the month Av)
looking for a shidduch and some women stressed their family's wealth,
other their family's yichus and some stressed the women themselves and
the mitzva of getting married. Hence, suuply and demand in shidduch has
been around for many thousands of years.

Eli Turkel


From: Dave Curwin <6524dcurw@...>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:07:06 EST
Subject: Shivat Tzion

A book called "Shivat Tzion" is referenced in Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook's
"Torat Eretz Yisrael" and in Tzvi Glatt's "MeAfar Kumi". It seems
to be dealing with rabbinic support of the pre-Zionist and Zionist 
movements. Is anyone familiar with it? Who is its author, and is it
still in print?

David Curwin		With wife Toby, Shaliach to Boston, MA
904 Centre St.          List Owner of B-AKIVA on Jerusalem One
Newton, MA 02159                   <6524dcurw@...>
617 527 0977          Why are we here? "L'hafitz Tora V'Avoda"


From: <ohayonlm@...> (Lisa Halpern)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 08:16:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Singing during Tefillah

In Ira Rabin's post about "correct" tefillah, if I understood correctly
he objected to the occasional "showmanship" of the ba'al tefillah.  An
example he gave of this is using D'veykus tunes during tefillah.  While
in general I personally prefer less singing of any type during davening,
I am wondering what the range of opinions on singing during davening is.
What specifically makes D'veykus more troubling than, say, Galician
Kedusha, or chazzanut, or any of the various niggunim of Yom Kippur
Mussaf?  Of course "showmanship" rather than kavannah is inappropriate
(although I always try to remind myself that the ba'al tefillah's
niggunim are probably adding to or are an expression of his kavannah,
even though I am being distracted) but when and what types of singing
are appropriate?

Thank you all for your responses.
Lisa Halpern


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryuahu)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:48:17 -0400
Subject: Tefillin

in MJ24#22 Arthur J Einhorn posted the following question:
>I am curious to know if there are any tefillin, mezzuzos, or sifrei
>Torah that predate the Bais Yosef and Ari that show which style was used

One tefilin was found in an archeological dig in Israel and the finding
was published in a book by Prof. Yigal Yadin. I read the book several
years ago and it is full of valuable information. I think that the title
is ~Tefilin of Qumran. The book is bilingual English-Hebrew. Partial
parts of the Tanach were found in many digs and were published in many

Gilad J. Gevaryuahu


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Waltzing Matilda

Hi all.

One of the other members of my shul was at a meeting in Japan
recently.  He spent Shabbat there (in Tokyo, I think).  They used the
tune "Waltzing Matilda" for "Shir HaMaalot" prior to bentsching.

Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: <agw@...><a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


End of Volume 24 Issue 25