Volume 24 Number 35
                       Produced: Sun Jun  9 12:50:02 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Acheinu kol Beis Yisrael
         [Gershon Dubin]
Birchat Cohanim
         [Avi Feldblum]
Current Mitzvot
         [Binyomin Segal]
Davening Mistakes
         [Moshe Sokolow]
Davening Mistakes - Summary wanted !
         [Nicolas Rebibo]
Kollelim and parnasa
         [Saul Mashbaum]
Marriage of cohen with a convert ??
         [Albert Ozkohen]
Prayers during Duchaning
         [Yosey Goldstein]
Textual changes
         [Rafi Stern]


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 18:07:00 -0400
Subject: Acheinu kol Beis Yisrael

        Does anyone know a source for the congregations saying (or not
saying) the last paragraph of the "yehi ratzon" that the chazan says on
Monday and Thursday-Acheinu kol bais yisroel... together with the
chazan?  I've seen it both ways.

        Sub-question: (some?) Sephardy siddurim have the same prayers
for the Shabbos before Rosh Chodesh.  Do they say all of the prayer
together, only the last part, none?

<gershon.dubin@...>        |
http://www.medtechnet.com/~dubinG   |


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 12:00:54 -0400
Subject: Birchat Cohanim

While I may be on the other side of the Tallit during Duchening, I am
not totally unaware of what is said in the Rabono Shel Olam [RS"O]
(Master of the Universe supplication), and the instructions written in
many siddurim. I also am not convinced that everything that is there is
absolutely correct. I'd like to focus in this note on why to say the
RS"O, and when (in terms of dates). I'd like to address in a second note
when to say it in relation to where during Birchat Cohanim (the
Blessings of the Cohanim) should the RS"O, which impacts the question of
what singing the Cohanim should be doing. I am very interested in anyone
who has historical knowledge on this matter, and look forward to
comments from this erudite group on a matter that has interested me for
a number of years. 

The source of saying the RS"O is found in Gemarah Brachot, page 55b. Man
dechaza chalma velo yedah mai chaza ... - One who say a dream and does
not know what he saw, let him get up during the time the Cohanim raise
their hands and and say as follows: Master of the Universe, I am yours
and my dreams are yours. I have dreamed a dream .... 

As far as I can tell, the Rambam does not bring this down as a halacha
in his Yad Hachazaka. The Tur, however, does bring this down in Orach
Chaim, chapter 130, using almost exactly the language of the Gemara. To
continue where I left off above, the Tur has: whether I dreamed about
myself or whether others dreamed about me. This differs from the text in
our Gemara, which has these two statements, as well as a statement about
whether I dreamed about others. It is interesting that the Perisha (R.
Yosha Volk) on the page there argues that the language "whether others
dreamed about me" is incorrect and should be removed from the RS"O. 

The Haghahot Maimoniot citing the practice of his Rebbi, the Maharam, is
the source that both the Beis Yosef and Bach use to identify when to say
the RS"O, and it is "at the time when the Cohanim say -veyishmarecha,
vechuneka and shalom". The Beis Yosef then brings down the opinion of
the (Terumas Hadeshen - ? abbreviated in the text as Tav"Heh) that one
should only say the RS"O during the period when the Cohanim are
extending the final Chaf of the two words. More on that in the next

The Shulchan Aruch brings down basically the same halacha, although the
Ramah comments that in a place that the Cohanim do not go up to Duchen,
one should say it while the Chazan says Sim Shalom. For both however,
there does appear to be a strong concern that one finish the
supplication at the same time as the Cohanim (or Chazan) finish their
blessing so that the congregation say Amen to their supplication as

The Taz and the Magan Avraham deal with the current situation where we
only duchen (in Ashkenazi congregrations outside of Israel) on the
festivals. The Taz says that it is alright to say the RS"O on the
festival, even if one did not dream the previous night, since he surely
must have dreamed since the last festival. However, those who say the
RS"O every day (following the gloss of the Ramah to say it during Sim
Shalom) are doing wrong, and only should do so if they have dreamed the
previous night. 

The Magen Avraham brings down from the (Toras Chatus ? abbrev =
Tav"Chet) that the RS"O is only effective if said the day following the
dream. The Magen Avraham then says that this appears difficult to him,
because according to this, the common practice of all of Israel is in
error, since everyone says the RS"O at the festival, and surely not
everyone had a bad dream the previous night. (Note: it appears to me
that the earlier sources understand velo yedah mai chaza as meaning not
knowing if the dream indicated something good or something bad.  This
Magen Avraham is the first mention I have noticed that identified the
RS"O with a known bad dream.) It appears to me that the basic
disagreement the Magen Avraham has with the Tav"Chet is not based on any
textual or logical proof that the opinion is incorrect, but that it must
be since everyone is doing the opposite.

The Machazit Hashekel picks up on this, and says that indeed, the
Tav"Chet explicitly states that the common practice is in violation of
halacha, but that the Magen Avraham was not willing to posit that such
an error had so fully propogated. The Machazit Hashekel continues to
discuss the order of which dreams to pray about first, what you dreamed
about yourself, or what you dreamed about others. In that discussion, he
says that once you ask about what you have dreamed about yourself, we
then add in the phrase what others have dreamed about you, even though
it is not primary to this supplication.  In discussion the situation
where Birchat Cohanim is said every day, he says it is clear that if you
did not dream the previous night a dream that would indicate that you
should say the RS"O. it is clear that you would not say it just because
someone else might have dreamed about you. Thus the Machazit Hashekel
concludes, that in our time, one should only say the RB"O on the first
day of the festival (for any dreams since the last festival), and on the
second day, only those who had a dream the previous night should say it.
The Biur Halacha (Mishna Berura) brings down the opinion of the Machazit
Hashekel , and comments that this is not the common custom, and that
perhaps they worry about the issue of others dreaming about them, but if
so, they may not begin the supplication with "I have dreamed a dream",
but should start from "May it be your will that all dreams". 

In conclusion, while the custom in Ashekenazi shuls in the Diaspera is
to say the RS"O every time that Birchat Cohanim is said (on festivals),
the logical halachic basis for this appears to be almost unknown. The
strongest statements appear to be that this is what is being done
everywhere, so it must be correct. The basis for saying it on days other
than the first day of Pesach, Shavuot, and Rosh Hashana in a case where
the individual knows thay have not dreamed a dream that would indicate
the need to say the supplication, appears even weaker to me. May we all
merit being in Israel in the near future where they Duchen every day and
this topic will then be purely theoretical. 

I would greatly appreciate any additional information and sources that
other people may have on this topic, as well as any general discussion
as is the mail-jewish way in things. 

Avi Feldblum



From: <bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:47:06 -0500
Subject: Current Mitzvot

Janice Gelb asked
 * Has anyone done a count of the mitzvot that are still possible today now
 * that the Temple is no longer standing?

The Chofetz Chaim wrote a work (similar in many ways to the sefer
hachinuch) where he lists & describes all the mitzvot available in his
day.(77 positive & 194 negative)

It is available in hebrew with english translation from Feldheim, "The
Concise Book of Mitzvoth". In it is a supplement listing 26 mitzvoth we can
do today that were (for the most part) unavailable to people in the Chofetz
Chaim's time - the mitzvot that are related to living in the land of Israel
(ie trumah, maaser etc)



From: <TorahDept@...> (Moshe Sokolow)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:12:27 -0400
Subject: Davening Mistakes

Re; "davening" mistakes;
I was once asked by a dieter whether there was a berakhah to recite over
losing weight. I replied that I only knew of a berakhah over gaining
weight--that's the one that comes after hazarat hashatz of shaharit on a day
that hallel is said. The shatz is saying "hamevareikh et amo yisrael
bashalom" when the kahal (zerizim all!) interrupts with "amen." The result:


From: <nre@...> (Nicolas Rebibo)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:28:22 +0200
Subject: Davening Mistakes - Summary wanted !

> Many members of this list have been posting their 'favourite' chazzanus
> mistakes, so I will add mine as well.

I have not followed this subject since it started. I was wondering if
someone could post a summary of these mistakes once the thread is over.

Nicolas Rebibo               


From: <mshalom@...> (Saul Mashbaum)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 10:57:20 EDT
Subject: Kollelim and parnasa

I wish to express my strong support for Rabbi Marlyes well-reasoned and
well-expressed position on Kollel learning and working.

Most deplorable were the immediate and sometimes vicious personal
attacks on Rabbi Marlyes. The incapacity of some people to deal with a
sensitive and complex subject in a reasoned manner is no doubt well
known; nevertheless, it is disappointing and upsetting to see how
quickly attackers resorted to name-calling and personal castigation,
instead of attempting to refute Rabbi Marlyes' postion with logical

I admire the poster's courage in expressing in a clear and definitive
manner a position which he undoubtedly knew would be unpopular in some
circles.  As he pointed out, part of the problem is the unwillingness of
those who hold this position to express it, for fear of being subject to
the kind of personal criticism he endured.

Fortunately, there are individuals to whom Emes is more important than
"what will people say about me?". We are fortunate that Rabbi Maryles is
one of these people. I believe that his postings were a great credit to
him, and to his illustrious Rebbe, one of the Gedolei Hador.

Saul Mashbaum


From: <akohen@...> (Albert Ozkohen)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:27:45 +0300
Subject: Marriage of cohen with a convert ??


I wonder if a cohen can marry with a convert. (My wife is a Levi)
In a book of Rabbi Hayim Halevi Donin (To Be A Jew) it is stated as follows :

(page 291)
- Although the Torah forbids a kohen from entering any of the above
marriages, and the halakha prohibits a rabbi from officiating at such a
marriage , should the kohen nevertheless contract and consumate the
relationship , the marriage as a marriage is valid. This differs from the
prohibited relations where no legal marriage takes hold and where the
offspring are illegitimate.

- Such a marriage disqualifies the kohen from his duties and privileges and
affects the status of children born. Male children (halal) are also
disqualified from the privileges and duties of a kohen , and female children
(halala) are forbidded to marry a kohen...... "

I posed this problem because my brother is married with a non-Jew. He
has 3 children 2 boys and 1 girl. They live now in Holland. The rabbis
in Jerusalem showed them only one solution : divorce. But this is
leading my brother to be discarded from being Jew which means a loss.

Reading the above paragraph from that book, my brother now seek a
soltion for his kids to make possible for them to be Jews.  Can somebody
show me how it could be, (e-mail addresses, halakhic sources, etc.)

Albert Ozkohen
ELIT Computer Software Ltd. 
Tel & Fax  : 90-212-266 16 68  /  266 56 09
Istanbul - Turkey
e-mail address :  <akohen@...>


From: Yosey Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 96 15:08:41 EDT
Subject: Prayers during Duchaning

One poster, (Was it OUR own mod. Avi? [Yes it was - Mod.]) questioned
the need to recite the RIBBONO SHEL OLOM on the second day of yom tov
for those who did not have a bad dream.

    I would like to point out that the words of the "RBS'O" Teffillah is
very clear as to the answer to that question. In fact I would only
expect such a question to come from a Kohain who never said the tefilla.
:-) The Tefillah says that just as Hashem had had changed the illnesses
of miriam, naamon, etc. so should Hashem change our bad dreams to good,
*whether we dreamed about ourselves or others dreamed about us*

    So it makes no difference whether or not we had a bad dream at all.
(I had seen the same explanation in the Meam Loez, sorry I do not
remember where in the Meam Loez it was.)



From: <iitpr@...> (Rafi Stern)
Date: Wed,  5 Jun 96 06:45:00 PDT
Subject: Textual changes

If we say that changes have been made to the text of the Torah
Shebichtav, the question is why? Does anyone have a good answer?

On the matter of the inconsistancies in the Qumran scrolls, I have heard
it said (though I don't know how authoratively) that they were scrolls
with mistakes in a kind of Geniza in the cave - hences their deviations
from the accepted text. Does anyone know any more about this?

Rafi Stern
The Israel Institute of Transportation Planning and Research
POB 9180 Tel Aviv 61090 Israel. Tel: 972-3-6873312  Fax: 972-3-6872196
E-mail: <iitpr@...>


End of Volume 24 Issue 35