Volume 24 Number 67
                       Produced: Wed Jul 17 23:08:07 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Educating Rebbeim to Teach Secular Studies
         [Esther Posen]
Handling psych problems at Yeshiva
         [Zvi Weiss]
HaShem Melech
         [Saul Mashbaum]
Help Finding Article
         [Joseph P. Wetstein]
Mishna question
         [Tara Cazaubon]
Rashi on Menachos
         [Eli Turkel]
Rashi on Menachot
         [Yossie Abramson]
Rebbeim/Secular Subjects
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Socializing Between the Sexes
         [Janice Gelb]
         [Rafi Stern]
Strong Emotions and Lashon Hara
Water filtration and borer
         [Elliot D. Lasson]
Yeshiva Tuition
         [Steven Spinell]


From: <eposen@...> (Esther Posen)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:34:41 -0500
Subject: Educating Rebbeim to Teach Secular Studies

Mr. Maryles makes and interesting proposal but I can see some problems
with it.  Although I "opted out" of chinuch, both of my parents are in
it and so are some of my siblings.  Teaching for about a half a day (3-5
hours) seems to consume about 8-10 hours a day for good teachers when
you include preparation, marking and dealing with parents.  Good
teaching is a "performance" and a professional teacher most often cannot
"perform" all day.  I was just talking to a Rebbe the other day who
teaches first grade in the morning and six grade in the afternoon.  He
did this because he needed the money but he is going back to teaching
just half a day because he felt that everyone involved - himself, his
students and his family - were suffering.  He is going to attempt to
earn money through some type of business the other half of the day.

Which brings me to my proposal.  I believe yeshivas have to move away
from fundraisers that rely on the parent body forking over even more
money.  Yeshivas should be supported by businesses whose profits are
allocated 100% to the yeshiva.  These could include thrift shops, real
estate holdings, endowments, even grocery stores.  This would give
parents the opportunity to buy something they would purchase anyway and
let the profits be funneled to yeshivas.



From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:15:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Handling psych problems at Yeshiva

> From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
> 	i have chosen not to mention the name of this yeshiva in public,
> because i believe doing so would unfairly subject them to Lashan Hara,
> which may take away from the good the yeshiva does both for its students
> and the community it is in.  However, that does not mean the problem
> should be ignored.  Therefore, if anyone is interested in assisting me
> deal with the problem at this or any other Yeshiva that has similar
> policies, please E-mail me so we can develop an appropriate course of
> action.

==> Actually, this policy may involve VERY serious issues of Sakkanot 
Nefashot.  I am not at all certain that strictures of Lashon Harah apply 
in such a situation.  IMHO, I would suggest asking the LOR about this and 
then -- if permitted -- PUBLICIZING the Yeshiva with such a "benighted" 
("criminally stupid" is probably more accurate!) policy to put pressure 
upon them to change a policy that may be a catastrophe just waiting to 



From: <mshalom@...> (Saul Mashbaum)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:33:30 EDT
Subject: HaShem Melech

Chaim Schild, in MJ, v24n44, asks about the sentence in our siddurim:
"HaShem Melech, HaShem Malach, HaShem Yimloch L'olam Vah'ed".

The sentence and its place in the prayerbook is of tannaitic origin.

Masechet Sofrim 14:8 includes this sentence in the service of taking out
the Torah on Shabbat and Yom Tov, as we do to this day. This is part of
"porays et Hashma" mentioned in Megilla 24a; the mishna in Masechet
Sofrim supports the opinion of the rishomin that the term refers to
taking out the Torah on Shabbat and Yom Tov. The sidddur of Rav Amram
Gaon, one of the earliest siddurim we have, already includes the

The commentaries from the Aburdaham on note and discuss the fact that
the sentence is not a scriptual verse but a combination of 3 verses
(although the last 4 words are a complete scriptual verse - Shmot 15),
and that the order of the sentence is not chronological.

Saul Mashbaum


From: Joseph P. Wetstein <jpw@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:23:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Help Finding Article

I am trying to find an article by R'Chaim Soloveitchik that was in an
issue of Tradition many years ago... it was rather popular and I don't
recall the name...

>2. You should really try to get hold of the issue of Tradition with the
>article by Rabbi Haim Soloveitchik (The son of the Rav ZT"L) -- I think
>that you will find it most interesting. 


From: Tara Cazaubon <tarac@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:35:30 -0700
Subject: Mishna question

I was studying the first division of the mishna (agriculture section),
shebiit and was shocked by a certain passage.  In part 8 paragraphs 9 and
10, Rabbi Akiva seems to be using some pretty strong language towards Chazal
regarding an issue of a hide rubbed with oil produced during the shemittah
year, and about bread baked by samaritans being treifah.  Rabbi Akiva's
response seems to be "Shut up, dummies!  I won't tell you what R. Eliezer
meant by this." (Chazal is disagreeing with Akiva and this is Akiva's
response to them).  I was rather shocked by this passage.  Have I grossly
misunderstood this passage or is Rabbi Akiva insulting Chazal?

Tara Cazaubon


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:34:58 -0400
Subject: Rashi on Menachos

   According to the Soncino translation the "real" Rashi on chapters
7-10 of Menachos is what is known as the manuscript Rashi (Rashi kitvei
Yad) which was added to the published Gemaras in the 1800s. This is
"proved" by the fact that the language is frequently identical to that
quoted by Tosaphot.
   The "Rashi" that appears on the side of the page is assumed to be a
student of Rabbenu Gershom since the language is frequently quite close
to that of the commentary of Rabbenu Gershom.

Eli Turkel   <turkel@...>


From: <yossie@...> (Yossie Abramson)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:50:27 EDT
Subject: Rashi on Menachot

The "unofficial" Rashi  was written by Rashi's son in-law, I believe it
was the Ridan, or Rivan.


From: Andy Goldfinger <andy_goldfinger@...>
Date: 16 Jul 1996 09:58:12 -0400
Subject: Rebbeim/Secular Subjects

Harry Maryles suggests encouraging Rebbeim to also teach secular subjects:

"to have the rabbeim, mechanichim, and mechanachot educated in secular
studies in all fields so that they could teach both limudei kodesh and
limudei chol"

While visiting a number of yeshivas in search of one for my elder son, I
attended an afternoon calculus class that was taught by the Rebbe that
taught the same students Gemara in the morning.  For me, it was a very
moving experience to see the bochurim call their calculus teacher (who
was very much a "back hat" type, with long payos) "Rebbe."  The boys
were highly motivated, and could not have had a better role model.

I strongly support Mr. Maryles idea.


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:10:20 -0700
Subject: Socializing Between the Sexes

In Vol. 24 #65, Gad Frenkel said:
> Furthermore given the social and sexual mores of our society perhaps too
> much friendly socilaizing between the sexes should be avoided,
> especially among young hormonally active people whose values are all too
> much defined by those of popular culture, especially in areas of dating
> and sexuality.

While this statement was made in the context of a discussion on
tashlich, I believe it is stated in a general enough way that it can be
used as a springboard for a larger issue. (I hope the moerator agrees!)

The specific context for the socializing Gad mentioned above was at
Tashlich. We are not talking here about young people going off together
in private, but about them socializing together in a public place (and
in the specific case of Tashlich, with many friends, relatives, and
fellow congregants around them).

No one, I think, would argue for indiscriminate and licentious behavior
between the sexes. However, I would argue that a total separation
between the sexes is not healthy either. If the only things young men
hear about women are in regard to the laws about avoiding touching them,
avoiding looking at them, and avoiding socializing with them, and if
they never have the opportunity to socialize with them except when they
are about to pick a spouse, the odds go up that they will regard women
as foreign creatures whose main function and purpose is in a sexual or
childbearing light. The more men are able to freely talk and joke with
women in a normal context, the more they are likely to regard women as
fully spectrumed individuals like themselves.

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address. 


From: <iitpr@...> (Rafi Stern)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 06:47:52 PDT
Subject: Striking

Today (Wed 17/07/96) there is a national strike in Israel which has been
called by the Histadrut Labor Union in protest over government economic
policy. Without getting too involved in the issue, the new Likud
goverment announced budgetary cuts which have not yet been passed by the
Knesset and they are also planning a privitization campaign. This strike
is political in nature and is not related to any specific
employer-worker grievance, but rather it is politcal muscle flexing. The
scope of the action is that all the government sector is on strike all
day, emergency services and hospitals are only dealing with emergencies,
and in the private sector there will be serious disruption although this
has been lessened by court orders entitling certain factories and
sectors to strike symbolically for a limitted number of hours only
(i.e. go home early, take a two hour lunch break, or come in late).

Can anyone enlighten me as to Teshuvot etc on the matter of
striking. Under what circumstances does the Halacha allow workers to
strike? Is there a limit on what form of action they may take? Is
secondary action, or country-wide striking allowed? If a strike is
Halachically assur, then what about the worker who is frightened of the
local union men who force him to strike?

I am aware that in Talmudic times the Hahamim were very careful not to
cause loss of work to employers and that this affected when and how the
workers could daven for example. Is this relation to lost time related
to social norms and labor practices or is it an absolute value?

Wishing you all a productive work day,

Rafi Stern
IITPR - The Israel Institute of Transportation Planning and Research
POB. 9180, Tel Aviv 61090, Israel. Tel:972-3-6873312   Fax:972-3-6872196
E-mail: <iitpr@...>


From: Anonymous
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:10:17 -0400
Subject: Strong Emotions and Lashon Hara

I'm wondering how individuals on the list handle strong emotions that
are provoked by another person without violating the laws of lashon
hara.  For example: a friend (inadvertently or deliberately) does
something that makes you feel (angry/extremely sad/upset/plug in your
favorite strong emotion here).  You are not able to talk to this person
directly (admittedly the preferred option), either because you are
afraid to, or because you feel the conversation won't have a positive
outcome, and would therefore be counterproductive, or because you
haven't sorted out your own feelings well enough to express them
clearly.  BUT, you really need to talk to somebody, because you are
driving yourself crazy reliving the scene in your head, and you need to
work it out of your system.  BUT, you don't want to speak lashon hara.

I want to know how readers of this list handle this type of situation.
(Yes, I'm looking for some practical suggestions that have worked for



From: <elasson@...> (Elliot D. Lasson)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:31:32 EDT
Subject: Water filtration and borer

Someone posed the issue of using a water filter pitcher on Shabbat.  The
concern was one of borer, where the filter "screens' out the lead and
other particles that are not visible.

According to the Gemara (in Shabbat) one may pour a liquid through a
cloth to remove tiny splinters, as it is not visibly borer.  This would
seem to be an even stronger case that it should be permitted, because
the lead content is invisible.

All of this assumes that the water filter system does not involve
anything electronic, but merely filling a pitcher, where the water
passes through the fitlter.

Elliot D. Lasson, Ph.D.
University of Baltimore Division of Applied Psychology
Baltimore, MD 21201


From: Steven Spinell <SPINELL@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:55:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Yeshiva Tuition

Reply to Mr. Mayles idea regarding Tuition:
 Mr. Mayles suggewsted having traing in teaching secular studies for our
future Rabbis.  An exelcent idea.  But what to do now?

Consolidating staff in day schools isn't really necessary.  It is a
scheduling problem.  The solution is to have half the Rabbis and half
the secular teacher.  Then the rabbis teach two levels and so do the
secular teachers.
 Ex.:  4th graders learn religious studies with Rabbi A from 8:00 AM 
until 11:00 AM then go to Mr. X ; and learn writing skills, math and 
science until 3:00 PM.  What is Rabbi A doing from 11:00 AM until 
3:00 PM? He is teaching a 5th grade group their curriculum.  Mr X is 
teaching the 5th graders their secular studies from 8:00 AM until 
11:00 AM.

Moshe Avrom Spinell


End of Volume 24 Issue 67