Volume 24 Number 71
                       Produced: Sun Jul 21 14:51:12 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Businesses to support yeshivot
         [David Charlap]
Cerebral Palsy Patient
         [Adam Bernstein]
Educating Rebbeim to Teach Secular Studies
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Judaica and Secular Subject teachers
         [Leah S. Gordon]
Reeces Peanut Butter Cups
         [Chana Luntz]
vocal production, brochos
         [Philip Ledereich]
Yeshiva Education
         [Susan Hornstein]
Yeshiva tuition
         [Elisheva Schwartz]


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 10:50:41 EDT
Subject: Businesses to support yeshivot

<eposen@...> (Esther Posen) writes:
>Which brings me to my proposal.  I believe yeshivas have to move away
>from fundraisers that rely on the parent body forking over even more
>money.  Yeshivas should be supported by businesses whose profits are
>allocated 100% to the yeshiva.  These could include thrift shops, real
>estate holdings, endowments, even grocery stores.  This would give
>parents the opportunity to buy something they would purchase anyway and
>let the profits be funneled to yeshivas.

I think this is a great idea.  The only problem I can see is convincing
a store owner to simply pay himself a salary and give all the profits to
the yeshiva.  This problem would be eliminated if the yeshiva owned the
businesses, but that may create other problems.

Another benefit is that the yeshiva (at least on the High School level)
can run work-study programs, where students can work in the store for a
few hours a week in excahange for a tuition discount.  It also provides
summer jobs for yeshiva students.  These jobs would be better than the
ones the student could find on his own, because the store would be run
by religious personnel - creating peer pressure for the student to daven
and eat kosher while out of school.  It would also eliminate the problem
some students have of leaving work early for Shabbat and holidays.


From: Adam Bernstein <apb@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:01:01 -0700
Subject: Cerebral Palsy Patient

> > From: Adam Bernstein <apb@...>
> > As the Director of the San Francisco bikkur cholim called Operation
> > Kinder, I recently had a patient here who has cerebral palsy for spinal
> > surgery. He is speech-impaired, but has an electronic device that enables
> > him to communicate. He uses head movements to activate his electronic
> > sound box. For his Bar Mitzvah, he learnt how to say the Brochos using
> > this device, but his local Orthodox Rabbi (in K'far Saba) said that he
> > could not get an aliyah (on a Thursday) as his Brochos would not be
> > valid. The family, who are not observant, arranged for him to called up
> > in a reform temple.
> ==> There is too little information here:
>   (a) Did the Orthodox Rabbi offer any other alternatives?
>   (b) In general how sensitive was the Rabbi to the issues here?
>   (c) How did *the  boy* feel -- how did HE handle it (I can see how his
>     parents reacted)?
>   (d) Do the parents undrstand what B'rachot are -- or did they think this
>     is just some sort of "ceremony"?

(a) The Orthodox Rabbi said there was no way around the boy's inability
to say the brochos.
(b) The parents felt the Rabbi was insensitive.
(c) The boy was keen to have a BarMitzvah, for which he had worked hard,
and was happy with the solution to go to a Reform Temple.
(d) The family, as mentioned previously, is non-observant, and so they
understand what Brochos are in terms of being non-observant Jews in

I think you may be missing the point of the posted item : the boy is an
intelligent human being, with a severe deformity that does not allow him
to communicate verbally as you or I might do. He is, however, fluent in
Hebrew, Russian, and English - I have had meaningful conversations with
him in Hebrew and English (albeit slow ones). His (and his parents')
comprehension of things Jewish may well be restricted to a secular
Israeli's perspective.

The issue is more of : if an individual is unable to verbalize naturally
and is not observant : (a) are brochos enunciated by an electronic
device valid?  (b) should a possible ba'al t'shuva be turned away even
though he may not have a full comprehension of the 613?

Regards and Kol Tuv.


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:38:35 -0400
Subject: Educating Rebbeim to Teach Secular Studies

In MJ 24#67 Esther Posen suggested:
> I believe yeshivas have to move away from fundraisers that rely on the
>parent body forking over even more money.  Yeshivas should be supported
>by businesses whose profits are allocated 100% to the yeshiva.  These
>could include thrift shops, real estate holdings, endowments, even
>grocery stores.  This would give parents the opportunity to buy
>something they would purchase anyway and let the profits be funneled to

If a not-for-profit entity runs a regular business on the side (at least
as far a USA taxation is concerned) it is labled "unrelated business
income" and the profit is subject to full taxation similar to any
business entity. The endowment funds in rich institutions are invested
predominantly in stocks and bonds and other financial instruments.

I think that it is a bad idea to get Jewish day-schools and Yeshivot
into the business world, an area that they know very little about - let
them specialize in limudei kodesh. But it will be wonderful if they will
be heavily and heavenly endowed.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu, CPA


From: Leah S. Gordon <lsgordon@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 12:25:58 -0700
Subject: Judaica and Secular Subject teachers

I am concerned about a subtle implication in several postings about
combining the roles of secular and Jewish teaching in yeshivot.

The implication is that all of the teachers are (or could reasonably be)
men.  This implication is in both the post that suggests that rabbis
teach all courses, and in the post that gives the hypothetical example
of Rabbi A and Mr. X.

Obviously, it would be disastrous to eliminate women from teaching
positions in yeshivot at the high school level.  Not only would it be
grossly sexist [and thus probably illegal in the United States], but it
would negatively impact both religious women and the yeshiva system.

Many religious women choose careers in chinuch, and women who have
advanced education have the option of being upper school teachers in
math, science, etc.  (I am referring primarily to co-ed and boys'
schools, because I suspect that women will always be able to be teachers
in girls' schools.)

Unless religious women are included in the pool of candidates to teach
limudei kodesh (presumably gemara at that level), how will they be able
to teach at a high level under the suggested plan?  I understand (though
I hope that it is applicable only for the next very few years) the
objection to women teaching gemara on the basis that there aren't enough
highly educated women to do so.  However, let us not discount the
abilities of religious women to teach calculus.

I personally know several religious women who want to teach secular
subjects in Jewish schools.  These highly educated women would not
settle for teaching younger grade math along with, say, introductory
davening or what not.

The whole point of having different teachers for different subjects is
that people have different specialties.  Why overlook this key issue?  I
don't see that having different (or fewer) teachers with the same
overall teaching load would save money for yeshivot.  If non-Jewish and
Jewish teachers require different benefits for some reason (though I do
not know what these would be except perhaps tuition waivers for the
Jewish teachers' children), then the solution is simple: hire all Jewish

Leah S. Gordon


From: Chana Luntz <heather@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 21:48:00 +0100
Subject: Reeces Peanut Butter Cups

Can somebody remind me what the status of Reeces Peanut butter cups are
in the US.  My recollection from living there a few years ago was that
they were kosher - but they recently turned up in a fancy shop near work
here in England, and they didn't have a hechsher on them.  However they
did say manufactured in the USA on behalf of Hersheys international. On
the other hand, they had German writing on them, which to my mind would
indicate they were made for the export market (and they didn't say where
in the US they were manufactured, and my vague recollection was that it
was the plant in Philadelphia that was regarded as generally

Does anybody know whether these are in fact generally accepted as
kosher, and if they are in the domestic market, if there is any reason
to suspect, if they were manufactured in the USA, why they might not be
if manufactured for the export market?


(who has been totally thrilled to find Pepperidge Farm (with the OU!!)
at the same shop).


From: Philip Ledereich <ledereic@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 02:51:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: vocal production, brochos 

On mail.jewish somebody asked a question about making
brochos with an electronic voice (eg computer generated).

The question I would like to raise is what about vocal production
that is not quite normal, eg with
	passey muir valve (vocal production through an intact glottis)
	tracheo-esophageal prosthesis (through a prostetic neoglottis
		where the larynx/glottis has been removed,
		but speech is created through the mouth
	esophageal speech (also alaryngeal speech, but air is
		burped through the esophagus to produce speech
	electrolarynx - such that air is vibrated electronically,
		but words are created in the mouth.
What might be the relationship of these people saying brochos,
leining from the torah, davening at the amud, etc.

Thanks, Pesach


From: <susanh@...> (Susan Hornstein)
Date: 18 Jul 1996   9:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Yeshiva Education

I am concerned about two aspects of the current discussion about Yeshiva
education.  First, the idea of having Judaic studies teachers teach
secular subjects is an interesting one.  It does, however, have a major
drawback.  To institute such a policy would exclude some of the most
talented teachers of both Judaic and secular studies.  Why?  Not
everyone can be an expert teacher in many things.  A fabulous Chumash
teacher may have neither the expertise or background to teach Calculus,
or even Jewish History.  A math teacher whose talents shouldn't be
missed may certainly not have the education to teach Judaic studies as
well.  Why ask people with one relevant talent to take on expertise in
an area outside thier field?

In younger grades, an integrated approach often works, with the same
teacher presenting all material, Judaic and secular, in an integrated
fashion.  This is possible, because, with all due respect to the
incredible talent and energy that it takes to be a good primary teacher,
the individual math expertise (or other subjects) does not have to be as
advanced as to teach, for example, calculus.

Rather, I would propose some cooperation with the public school system.
We all pay property/education taxes.  Why not get something out of it
aside from the important goal of having good public schools in general.
Perhaps a math teacher could teach one class at a yeshiva.  Or maybe the
science facilities of the local high school could be used by the
Yeshiva, to lessen the financial burden on the Jewish community.

My other concern relates to recent comments by Esther Posen.  She writes:

> We are insisting on standards of education that we cannot afford as a
> community!  We are becoming slaves to the American dream of a superior
> education!  We should be forcing our schools (and we do have the power
> collectively) to hold all aspects of the budget constant for 3-5 years

I agree with her conclusion, but her intermediate points alarm me.
Since when is a superior education an "American dream?"  Since when do
Jews compromise their standards of education and scoff at high
aspirations?!  Do we not all wish for our children to be Talmidei
Chachamim?!  Do we not all want to be a part of the pure transmittal of
Torah that has been taking place since Ha Kadosh Baruch Hu created the
world?!  We cannot compromise our standards.  Something else has got to

Susan Hornstein


From: Elisheva Schwartz <yivo5@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 14:06:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Yeshiva tuition

At least one day school has already come up with an (IMHO) excellent
solution to the problem of split limudei Kodesh and Limudei Chol
teaching staffs.
  My children attend Manhattan Day School in New York City.  There are,
as far as I know, _no_ part-time teachers and Rebbeim teaching there.
In order to get good and dedicated teachers they need to be paid a
living wage and receive appropriate benefits (otherwise those who can go
into business or something else that can provide those things, and
except for a few _glorious_ exceptions, our kids wind up with decidedly
second-rate teachers.  I speak from personal experience, as I have had
my children in a more "traditional" type of school and the calibre of
the teachers just can't compare, le-za'areinu.)  What MDS does is to
split each grade into two classes.  Half of the class learns Limudei
Kodesh while the other half learns Limudei Hol.  At the half-way point
of the day--they switch.  The schedule also flips once a week, so that
each class has a chance at both subjects in the morning (I'd have loved
for Limudei Kodesh to have always been in the morning--but the trade-off
is definitely worth it.)  Teachers seem to stay for years, also, and
this certainly helps .

I strongly recommend this approach.  (I would hasten to add that I don't
think this is the _only_ reason that MDS is such a good school. The entire
hanhala, led by ha-Rav David Kaminetsky, certainly plays a major role.)
Elisheva Schwartz


End of Volume 24 Issue 71