Volume 24 Number 82
                       Produced: Mon Aug 26  0:19:05 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Being a guest
Blood Donation and other Issues
         [Joseph P. Wetstein]
Educating Rebbeim to Teach Secular Studies
         [Zvi Weiss]
Free will and knowing of G-D's existence
         [Yosey Goldstein]
         [William H. Bernstein]
Rebeeim teaching secular subjects...A great Solution
         [Russell Hendel]
Trapping an Animal
         [Joseph Greenberg]


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 10:44:39 PDT
Subject: Being a guest

I would like to post this anonymously because I don't want to embarrass
my community (for which I am NOT a spokesman,) and some of our visitors.

I live in a city with a small frum community which happens to be located
in a very popular tourist and conference location.  We are constantly
receiving requests for home hospitality, both for Shabbat/Yom Tov, and
also for mid-week.

Recently we were visited by a group of students who caused so much
irritation, that I thought I'd like to go over a few suggestions on how
to be a good guest, one that we're happy to host.  I would really like
parents to think about this and then discuss it with their kids as well.

What makes a good guest?
 1.  A good guest calls well in advance if possible.  We are a small
congregation, and when a group calls on a Thursday for 30 Shabbat
places, someone has to spend the day calling people at work.  Please
remember to tell your hosts how many people you are.  (Don't forget to
mention your husband and children!)
 2.  A good guest is honest about dietary restrictions and physical
limitations.  We're happy to accommodate you, and don't want to make a
fussy meal that you can't eat.  We also don't want to place you with a
family whose house is too far for you to walk.
 3.  Please don't leave stuff all over the place.  We've had several
teenage groups who seem to think we all have maid service.  Strip your
bed, and put trash in a trash can, not on the night table or the floor.
 4.  Get to shul on time, and behave!!  
 5.  Bring your host family a little gift.  It shows that you appreciate
the effort.  A kosher food item that is only available in your hometown
makes a very nice impression for very little money.  And please don't
bake it yourself if they don't know you.  It's embarrassing when they
have no idea how strict your kashrut is because they have no idea who
you are.

The guest who is begged to return: Helps out, plays with the kids,
compliments the shul, meal, city, rabbi.  Sends a donation for their

Just my 2 cents worth.


From: Joseph P. Wetstein <jpw@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:40:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Blood Donation and other Issues

I am a regular blood donor. I have donated, over my not-so-many years,
GALLONS of blood to the Red Cross (and even to the Red Magen David,
during my last trip to Israel). In addition, I also am on the list with
Walter Reed for other blood product donation (4 hours hooked to a
machine to save someone's life seems worth it to me). When I was in
yeshiva, my Rosh HaYeshiva, Reb Shmuel Kamanetsky, shelita, was always
one of the first to donate from the community.

Recently a child in my parent's neighborhood became ill, and the frum
community is in a search for A+ blood (actually, they need platelets)
and announcing that people should donate if they are a match, etc. So,
people are going to find out if they are a match for that type, and then
are considering donation. It seems that for those people who are not a
match, they will defer themselves.

If you are healthy, use such sad stories of sick children as a REMINDER
to donate, regardless of your blood type. Just because you aren't a
match for one, doesn't mean you can't assist someone else who may need
it. You may have the opportunity to help someone else as well. And you
can hope, bizchus zeh, that you and your family will never have the need
to receive such services in return.

Yossi Wetstein
B+, HLA typed.


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:37:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Educating Rebbeim to Teach Secular Studies

> Which brings me to my proposal.  I believe yeshivas have to move away
> from fundraisers that rely on the parent body forking over even more
> money.  Yeshivas should be supported by businesses whose profits are
> allocated 100% to the yeshiva.  These could include thrift shops, real
> estate holdings, endowments, even grocery stores.  This would give
> parents the opportunity to buy something they would purchase anyway and
> let the profits be funneled to yeshivas.

 As a point of interest, I just came back from Aretz and while there, 
was on the Ateret Kohanim "tour" where they poiont out that the Toraht 
Chaim (I think that was the name) yeshiva was designed to have shops on 
the 1st floor to help support Kollel students (the stores were run by the 
"Kollel Wives").....



From: Yosey Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 96 15:29:16 EDT
Subject: Free will and knowing of G-D's existence

    There has been a discussion of this issue in this forum over the
past weeks. There are people that question, "How can anyone do any sin
if they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that G-d exists". There were
other questions raised and answers given. Without rehashing all of them
I would like to offer an answer that has not been offered yet, at least
not in these terms and with these proofs. (I will try to keep the proofs
brief, however, in the past I have said shiurim which lasted between 30
minutes and an hour on this.)

   Let me begin by saying I believe that even were one able to prove G-D
exists man would be able to sin. There are many proofs to support this
position. (Besides those mentioned by Reb Chaim Hendeles and others on
this forum) The first proof is ADAM himself. He had no doubt whatsoever
that he was created by Hashem and he spoke to Hashem personally. What
did he do several hours after he spoke to Hashem? He ate from the tree
of Knowledge that Hashem specifically prohibited him from doing. How
could he do such a thing? Was he unsure of what he saw, or what he
experienced? No! He knew Hashem. He knew what he was commanded but he
decided, for the reasons explained by the commentaries, to do as HE saw

   Can a prophet sin? A prophet who is on a level of holiness where he
speaks to G-D and G-d Answers him. can he sin? Well The Gemmorah tells
us that even the lowliest maid servant saw more than the prophet
Yechezkel. Was the entire nation of Israel at the level of prophets at
this point? could they sin? A mere 6 weeks later the entire nation was
standing at Mount Sinai and they saw Hashem say "I AM YOU G-D There
shall be no others before you...." Did they have any doubt? Yet Hashem
Commanded them YOU SHALL NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS!! That means even when
one is at the greatest level of belief one may sin and has the Mitzvah
of Emunah.

   Why is this? When Hashem created the world he created it to give man
the EQUAL choice of listening to what he commands or not to listen to
the commandments of Hashem. Therefore at all times, under all
circumstances, man has the ability to choose good or evil. If there is
an abundance of good influences in the world, Hashem allows there to be
an equal amount of bad influences to allow man the 50/50 choice of being
good or bad. When Kedusha is at its zenith and miracles abound then
there is an abundance of "Ruach Tumah" (Evil spirits, poor translation
sorry) with "miracles" generated by the evil spirits. (Black magic so to
speak) Otherwise there would be no way to choose one over the other.

  This truth is evident throughout EVERY generation. How could the Jews
in the desert sin? They experienced the revelation on Har Sinai. They
lived miraculously every day of their lives! How could the generations
of the prophets sin? The prophets told them what would happen if they
did not listen to the Torah. They KNEW the prophets foretold the truth!
How could Izevel/Jezebel tell Eliyahu immediately after the miracle on
the Carmel mountain that she would kill him? She and all the Jews saw
the miracles wrought by Eliyahu? The answer is that a person has the
choice under ANY circumstance to sin or to be a saint! No outside
experience can force anyone to make any decision or take any action. Any
action taken is by pure choice and free will.

  Reb Chaim Solevetchik (SP?) once said Thieves truly believe in G-D!
Before they go into to steal they pray to G-D that they are not caught!

   One can be certain that G-D exists and STILL sin. There is no

    Wishing everyone a Kesiva Vechasima Tova.



From: William H. Bernstein <104337.635@...>
Date: 13 Aug 96 10:30:18 EDT
Subject: Outreach

Avraham Husarsky writes:
  <<.  i would humbly suggest that for most lay proffesionals,
the majority of their time is spent on the mundane and such encounters
are few and far between.  a community of religious rabbis and teachers
who are there for the specific purpose of outreach, supported by lay
people who have a need to be in chu"l would be just as affected.>>

I disagree strongly.  It is axiomatic in Judaism that we never know what
effect our behaviour and actions will have on others.  A casual
encounter can awakwn all sorts of interests and questions.  When I was
living in a small college town I received an anonymous letter from a
woman who was moved to think about her Jewishness just from seeing me
walk in the street.  Additionally the presence and input of Observant
Jews in legitimate communal issues often at least sets the terms of
debate, even if it does not prevail.  A group of "professional Jews"
engaged in outreach will tend to show that observance is only for
teachers and rabbis, not the average working Jew--not the message we
want to send.

-Bill Bernstein <104337.635@...>


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:31:31 -0400
Subject: Rebeeim teaching secular subjects...A great Solution

There have been many recent postings on the high costs of tuition. Some
have suggested that we use Rebeeim to teach secular subjects. In
particular, my old friend Andy Goldfinger [Vol 24 # 67] described how

>>it was a very moving experience to see these bochurim call their calculus
>>teacher (who was very much a "black hat" type with long payos) "Rebbe". The
>>boys were highly motivated and could not have had a better role model.

I strongly support this idea BOTH (a) from an economic point of view
(think how much Yeshivoth and parents would save) and also (b) from an
educational point of view.

Let me elaborate...on the *educational* benefits... by making two points.

1) As a mathematics professor I have seen first hand the so called
Calculus "reform" movement that has been sweeping the country the past
10 years. One of the main points of emphasis in calculus reform is
providing fresh, new exciting examples of calculus that are
relevant. For example, the old calculus texts only had physics examples
since the main creator of calculus, Newton, was interested in
Physics. Current books, however, have examples from medicine, sociology,
learning theory, chemistry, psychology etc.

The idea immediately suggests itself that Rebeeim could contribute to
calculus teaching by bringing in(& creating!) examples relevant to
Judaism. For those skeptical whether calculus can be used in halachah I
refer to a recent beautiful short article in BOR HATORAH in which
calculus is used to justify some rather difficult concepts in the
Talmudic explanation of "majority" (Rov).

2) Most people are unaware that the old educational theories are based
on conditioning or stimulus-response theory---that is, you teach a
student the correct "response" to each stimulus, similar to the way we
teach animals to do tricks(in fact the Hebrew word LMD--learn--comes
from MLMD BAKAR..the cow prong..by which the cow is trained to go on the
right path).

However the newer educational theories emphasize not "training" but
"imitation".  Students learn, the theories say, because they have good
role models to imitate . But then, to use Andy's own language about
Rebee teachers

>>The boys were highly motivated & could not have had a better role model.

Russell Jay Hendel,  Ph.d., ASA, rhendel @ mcs . drexel . edu


From: Joseph Greenberg <jjg@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:08:00
Subject: Trapping an Animal

I remember learning that frum Jews have difficulty finding dear
(venison) that is kosher (Levana's not withstanding), because of the
issues regarding the prohibition against trapping animals. Last week, a
local slaughterhouse (run by a frum man in the meat business for many
years), had an incident where 4 cows, in the process of disembarking
from the cattle truck, realized where they were and decided to scram
(into downtown Detroit... talk about out of the pan and into the
fire). The owner of the slaughterhouse is about 75 or so, and goes to
work everyday to buy and sell and supervise (in other words, he's very
"with it"). He himself jumped into his pickup truck, to chase them
down.. he ultimately got them into some area (what kind of area is not
clear to me... I think a plot of land that was the site of a demolished
building and is now overgrown with weeds and rubble).  The cattle truck
had already been summoned, and apparently the cows were safely (for us,
not for them) returned to their untimely demise ( no, I'm not a
vegetarian). The question I've been thinking about, however, is whether
or not the same issues of trapping would apply in this case... in the
case of a renegade cow, are you allowed to setup a fence on all four
sides to trap the animal, and then "shecht" it? I understand that the
issues of pikuach nefesh would undoubtedly allow one to capture the cows
anyway possible (a 1200 pound cow on a city street is a major danger to
life, expecially city streets in the summer where there are lots of kids
playing, not to mention four of them) - but would you then be allowed to
kill it for kosher food or ritual use (tefillin, etc.)?

Joseph Greenberg      <jjg@...>
human                39819 Plymouth Road * Plymouth, MI 48170
synergistics         800/622-7584 * 313/459-1030 * fax 313/459-5557
international        http://www.humansyn.com/~hsi


End of Volume 24 Issue 82