Volume 24 Number 84
                       Produced: Mon Aug 26 22:51:38 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A model prototype of Good Midrash
         [Russell Hendel]
Age of Avraham/Universe
         [Mordechai Torczyner]
Baruch Dayan Emet - Chaim Philp Rothstein
         [Jerome Parness]
Codes of Bnei Yishmael
         [Avi Rabinowitz]
Computer Jobs in Israel - New Master List
         [Jacob Richman]
Joy on Rosh Hashana
         [Bobby Fogel]
Mazal Tov! it's a boy - and now he has a name!
         [Louis Rayman]
         [Stephen Slamowitz]
Socializing (3)
         [Miriam Levenstein, Nahum Spirn, Elana  Fine]
Socializing at Tashlich
         [Warren Burstein]
Socializing Between the Sexes
         [Warren Burstein]
The Shma
         [Matthew Gottlieb]


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:02:19 -0400
Subject: A model prototype of Good Midrash

[Katz, Vol 24 #76] asks why "..for all generations.." is included in the
paragraph discussing the counting and bringing of the OMER. Jonathan
correctly argues that it appears that the obligation is "at all times"
and not e.g only when the Temple is standing.

In fact, that is exactly the reason. One is biblically obligated to
count OMER today (even though it is obviously connected with a Temple
act that we do NOT have an obligation for).

There is a MALBIM someplace (I think on Tzizith in Bamidbar which Katz
wants too ask about next) that collects ALL mitzvoth where it says
"...for all generations...". The MALBIM points out that this occurs
frequently (again I am not sure but I believe between 2-3 dozen times).

The MALBIM suggests an underlying rationale: If a mitzvah is (1)
connected to a Temple commandment but is(2) obligatory at all times then
the Torah will say "..for all times..." This works out nicely for OMER.

In passing I note that this MALBIM is exemplary of good MIDRASH. Since
the MALBIM doesn't *just* "make a distinction" to explain the
MIDRASH...rather the MALBIM goes thru *all* cases and shows that the
distinction explains those where it occurs.

Incidentally in regards to Jonathans other question ---what does ZD mean
in connection with animals--Josh Backon [Vol 24 #78] has already
indicated that it probably refers to nets. I would like to add that ZD
is one of the 39 main categories of MELACHAH on Shabbath---and it
(halachically ) refers to trapping.

Russell Jay Hendel, Ph.d. ASA               


From: Mordechai Torczyner <mat6263@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Age of Avraham/Universe

Aharon Goldstein asks:
>         Hi, Someone asked me, is there any sourse in the Talmud or
> medrash about the age of the universe, or better said does state in the
> Talmud that the Torah was given in the year 2448, or that Abrahan was
> born in the year of 1948, etc.

	The first source [for both issues] which comes to mind is the
Gemara in Avodah Zarah 9a, also cited in Sanhedrin 97a.
	Of course, anyone adding the "begat" ages from Bereishes and Noach
can get the 2448 on their own.
WEBSHAS! http://www.virtual.co.il/torah/webshas & Leave the Keywords at Home


From: Jerome Parness <parness@...>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 11:18:04 EDT
Subject: Baruch Dayan Emet - Chaim Philp Rothstein

	To all MJers who are from the Philadelphia, PA, area it is my
sad task to announce the untimely petirah of CHAIM PHILP ROTHSTEIN, AKA,
HAIM FISHEL BEN HARAV YOSEF HAKOHEN on 5 Elul, 20 Aug, 1996, at the age
of 47 years young, while on vacation with his new wife on Block Island.
He leaves behind his wife Barbara, two girls from his previous marriage,
Beth and Lisa, and two adopted children Kimberly and Keoni, his wife's
nieces whose mother had been killed six months ago. He is also survived
by his two brothers, Aaron of Teaneck, NJ, and Judah, of Har Nof,
Yerushalayim, and a sister Debby Lurie of New Haven CT, and his mother,
Miriam, of Boca Raton, FL.  The levaya was yesterday, Aug 22, in
Philadelphia attended by almost four hundred people..
	Haim was an incredible human being, possessed of unbelievable energy and musical/liturgical talent.  He 
was a hazan par excellence and shared his musical love with all.  He was my best friend from grade school, the 
person I always got in trouble with together and enjoyed every minute of it.  The void is great.
	Yehi Zichro Baruch
	Jerry Parness
Jerome Parness MD PhD           <parness@...>
voice -  908-235-4824 (Pharm) OR office: 908-937-8841 (Anes)
lab: 908-235-5638 (Pharm)
fax -  908-235-4073(Pharm); 908-416-8492 (Anes)


From: Avi Rabinowitz <avirab@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 04:22:22 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Codes of Bnei Yishmael

	Codes of Bnei Yishmael

	Just before Shavuos this year, while on an overnight train in NW
India, en-route to Pakistan, I had a long conversation with my
train-compartment companions, a group of Muslim scholars and lay people
from the MidEast, France, North Africa, on the way to a few-month-long
program of religious studies.
	When asked as to my religion, which they assumed was Chr., I
told them it was 'a combination' of various beliefs. They tried to
convince me of the truth of Islam. Among other things, they told me in
all earnestness of the codes in the Kor'an which e.g. pointed Jacques
Cousteau to an underwater discovery. J.C. allegedly declared that he
would become a Muslim if the prediction was verified by his exploration.
My companions assured me that he found it, and thereby found Islam too.


From: Jacob Richman <jrichman@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:32:25 +0000
Subject: Computer Jobs in Israel - New Master List

Computer Jobs in Israel (CJI) has just released the new job master
list. The list contains information about 649 companies and 2500
positions that have been posted over the past year.  This is a valuable
reference document for people looking for work in Israel. Access to the
list and other useful documents in finding computer work in Israel is
free.  The URL to access the site is: http://www.jr.co.il/cji/ If you
have any questions or comments feel free to email me at:

Thank you,
Jacob Richman 
CJI Editor


From: Bobby Fogel <bobby@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:01:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Joy on Rosh Hashana

The gemara states: Loh hayu yamim toveem l'yisrael k' tu b'av v'yome
hakeepooreem.  (I dont have the daf in front of me now but this is close
enough) translating: there were no more joyous days for Israel than the
15th of Av or Yome Kippur.  Since Yome Kuppur is Yome ha'din (day of
Judgment) extroadinair, and it is considered by the chachameem of the
talmud as one of the happiest days of the jewish year, the jusdgment
aspect of Rosh Hashanna should not preclude it from being a joyous Chag
for the Jewish people.


From: <lou@...> (Louis Rayman)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:27:34 -0400
Subject: Mazal Tov! it's a boy - and now he has a name!

To put a finishing touch on the first chapter of the his hopefully
long and happy life, Rochi, Adin and I have given the name Yitzchak
Refael to our son (and brother, in adin's case).  He is named after my
maternal Grandfather, OBM.

  |_  ||____  | Lou Rayman - Hired Gun
   .| |    / /  Client Site: <lou@...>    212/603-3375
    |_|   /_/   Main Office: <louis.rayman@...>


From: Stephen Slamowitz <steve@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:49:55 -0400
Subject: Monkfish

Does anyone have any idea as to whether monkfish is kosher?  I have
heard conflicting opinions.




From: Miriam Levenstein <levenstein@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:14:02 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Re: Socializing

        Two points are being discussed in this argument, but it seems to me 
that the people that are arguing the point that men and women should not 
socialize are only proving the other side. They use points such as that 
women should be treated properly, which makes them seem very liberal, but 
they refuse to have anything to do with females unless they are a relative, 
meaning their relationship is based in the home, where the women is most 
likely spending a lot of time in the kitchen, or the woman is a spouse. 
Basically, these men are not willing to relate to women in a platonic 
fashion as their peers. It seems that these men only want to treat women 
properly when the women are conveniently tucked away into their proper 
role, but there are some women who want to be related to not as a mother, 
sister, aunt, or wife, but as a person. 
        I don't know if any of the subscribers are familiar with Bnei 
Akiva, which is an orthodox, zionist organization which is active around 
the world. A main principle of the movement is that boys and girls 
participate in activities together in a healthy environment. I know that in 
Chutz La'aretz zionism is sometimes equated with a lesser level of Judaism, 
but that is an incorrect perception. I admit that there are problems with 
Bnei Akiva in North America, but the youth that participate in their 
programs gain a love for Eretz Yisrael and many make Aliyah, which is 
viewed in a lot of orthodox circles and by many Rabbanim as an extremely 
important mitzvah. May I remind you that "It is more important to live in 
Israel among Gentiles than outside of Israel among Jews," and many other 
such quotations regarding the utmost importance of living in Eretz Yisrael 
as G-d deemed for the Jews? In Israel Bnei Akiva is a strictly orthodox 
organization where the boys and girls either participate together in 
activities, or in certain places like the Old City of Jerusalem, Hebron, 
and many other settlements, they participate in the main programs as one 
group, but divide into separated groups of boys and girls for other 
activities. These young boys and girls learn important values of Judaism 
while viewing each other as peers. They are not scared of each other, and 
the males don't quote Pirkei Avot as to why women are "bad" to talk to. 
        This does not mean that one should go out and seek a platonic
relationship with a person of the opposite sex. I am not going to say if
it is healthy or not, as I am not an accredited expert on male-female
relationships, as some of the subscribers seem to think they are. I can
only speak from experience, and from my experience a person can benefit
a lot from having some sort of relationship with a person of the
opposite sex. For one thing, it makes it difficult for someone to
generalize and stigmatize people of the opposite sex when they know of
one case that does not fit the generalization. For example, one
stereotype many men may think that women are very emotional and only act
impulsively according to those emotions. This stereotype can stem from
learning the Talmud, or just from hearing people speak around them. A
person would probably believe such a thing until he meets a women that
negates that stereotype.
                Sometimes people have to stop quoting and use common
sense.  The Torah gives us many boundaries as to how men and women
should behave together, and with those in mind men and women can stop
eyeing each other suspiciously, and have some sort of
relationship. People give statistics of a rising divorce rate and
acredit it to the relationships between men and women prior to
marriage. I don't know if there have been any studies done on this
connection, but I would venture to say that it has to do with changing
attitudes to divorce. In the past divorce was viewed as failure, and
people would stay in failing marriages just to avoid being "failures,"
but attitudes have changed. This may have to do with the new positions
women hold in society, and that they are not willing to stay in
psychologically and physically abusive relationships. Of course, that is
just my guess, and I am in no way an accredited expert in matters of
        To sum up, as we all know, Judaism offers many opinions on
different issues, as it does in this issue as well. I can quote Rav
Kook, while others can quote Rav Ovadiah Yosef, while still others can
quote Rav Moshe Feinstein, and we will all be right. "There are seventy
faces to the Torah."


From: Nahum Spirn <spirn@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:03:42 -0500
Subject: Socializing

        In reference to MJ #499, just wanted to share a gemara.  In Bava
Basra 91b, Rav Yochanan said: "I remember a time when 16 and 17-year
olds walked together in the market and didn't sin..."  It seems that by
his time (1st generation Amoraim) things weren't as pure anymore.
        Quite striking that the Mishna at the end of Taanis says Yom
Kippur, like Tu B'Av, was a day for shidduchim, in public!  I guess in
Mishnaic times the level was higher (unless you say the gemara in
B.B. is talking about walking together NOT for shidduchim)...

Nahum Spirn

From: Elana  Fine <ef91@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:34:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Socializing

If a girl goes to Bais Yaakov her whole life where if she talks to a boy
even to wish a passerby good shabbos she is given a negative reputation,
and her brother is supposed to be at yeshiva the whole day, and is also
not allowed to speak to girls even their sisters in public, how is this
sheltering positive?

Elana Fine


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:19:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Socializing at Tashlich

Micha Berger writes:
>Tashlich is supposed to be a "bein adam Lamakom" (between G-d and man")
>experience -- going down to the waterside, in the midst of nature, and
>there, alone with G-d, deciding to abandon whatever sins pose a
>challenge to you.

I don't get the feeling of being alone with God when I can hardly see
the cistern (what we use in my part of Jerusalem) due to all the men


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:15:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Socializing Between the Sexes

Joe Goldstein writes:

>Is it proper for boys and girls to walk out of Davening on Rosh
>Hashona to talk in the hall? Tashlich is no different.

Are people interrupting their Tashlich to socialize, or are they doing
it on the way there or back?  If the latter, the parallel question is if
it's proper for people to greet each other when they meet on the way to
shul or on the way home.


From: Matthew Gottlieb <MGottlie@...>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:47:08 -0400
Subject: The Shma

I have asked the following question to some friends and have received a
different answer from each one:

Why do we cover our eyes while saying the "Shma"?

Any thoughts??  Thanks!!!


End of Volume 24 Issue 84