Volume 24 Number 97
                       Produced: Wed Sep 25  3:58:33 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

(1) Gender Relations; (2) Gabbaim
         [Steve White]
A question on Ki Setze
         [David Charlap]
Baby Monitor on Shabbat
         [Donnie Stuhlman]
         [Moshe Schor]
Calling a Jesuit Teacher Father
         [Yussie Englander]
Calling professors "Father"
         [Aaron Gross]
Creation Ex Nihilo
         [Meylekh Viswanath]
mazal tov
         [Lisa Halpern]
Modern Orthodox
         [Joseph P. Wetstein]
         [Richard Flom]
RAMBI Citation Search System
         [Michael J Broyde]
Shoes and Prayer
         [Eliezer Finkelman]
Trapping an Animal
         [Warren Burstein]
Yetzer ra & King David's sin.
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 23:21:14 -0400
Subject: (1) Gender Relations; (2) Gabbaim

(1) There's been a recent thread between Janice Gelb on the one hand and
a number of posters on the other about what kind of level of interaction
between men and women is appropriate.  My native response tends to side
with Ms. Gelb, but I have to admit that I think the opposing arguments
also have much merit.

In that light, let me perhaps provide an example of where the situation
goes to unacceptable extremes.  About ten years ago, a female
(non-dating) friend and I were invited by a mutual male friend to spend
Shabbat in Bnei Brak.  When we arrived, we were having trouble finding
the address we were supposed to go to.  As my colloquial Hebrew might be
good enough to *ask* directions, but not good enough to understand a
rapidly spoken response, we felt that my female friend ought to ask
directions.  The only passer-by on the street was a man in yeshivish
garb; when we approached him *together* and she spoke to him to ask
directions, his response was to cross the street and proceed without
responding, with a rather ugly look back toward us.

I personally think that marriages would be better served if there was
*some* more interaction between men and women before marriage.  (What of
boys without sisters or mothers, anyway?)  I don't necessarily know what
"some" should mean, specifically.  But I absolutely insist that someone
who cannot even give a woman directions is unquestionably denying her
the dignity and respect that she deserves as a Jew and as a human being.

The question I have is that when a yeshiva boy is told that women is a
temptation and a distraction from important things (such as learning) --
and should therefore be avoided as much as possible -- how can he then
turn on a dime and treat her with the respect we are talking about,
which the halacha demands?  How can he turn from ignoring a woman to
treating her every need with the utmost attention and respect?  In
theory, fine.  In practice, very hard to do.

(2) Our shul's approach to the gabbai dilemma is that the two gabbais
have different functions.  One has the primary responsibility to figure
out who to call up -- and he's the one who knows the shul politics, the
personal whims, preferences, and needs, and so forth.  The other is an
expert in kriah, and has primary responsibility for shmirat hakriah.
That seems to make a lot of sense in my book.

Steve White


From: David Charlap <david@...>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:20:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A question on Ki Setze

<Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller) writes:
>In Ki Setze (Dvarim/Deut. 22:23-27) the Torah teaches about two
>situations where a betrothed woman has sexual relations with a man other
>than her husband. In one case, where the incident occurred in a city,
>the Torah tells us to presume that if the woman had protested, someone
>would have rescued her, and so we presume that the woman had these
>relations willingly, and so both she and the man are put to death. In
>the second case, where it happened in a field, the presumption is that
>she did protest, but no one heard her, and so she is held innocent and
>only the man is put to death.

The other thing that bothers me is that we have seen many situations
where people were attacked in public, and they did cry out, and nobody
came to their rescue anyway.

Does the halacha account for the likely scenaro where a woman would be
raped in the city, and she cried out, and nobody came to help?


From: <ssmlhtc@...> (Donnie Stuhlman)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:53:14 -0500
Subject: Baby Monitor on Shabbat

When our first child was born we were so concerned about his well being
that we asked our rabbi and our frum pediatrician about the use of a
baby monitor on Shabbat.  The justification was potential pekuah nefesh.
While they didn't give a definative yes or no, we did use it a few
times.  After a while we no longer needed it for our piece of mind.  We
never used the baby monitor on Shabbat for our 2nd child.

Donnie Stuhlman
Skokie, IL  60077   847-982-2500, fax 847-674-6381


From: <MOESCH@...> (Moshe Schor)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 02:13:42 -0400
Subject: Beefalo

In a message dated 96-08-11 00:49:40 EDT, you write:

<< Have found no discussion on mail.jewish of the kashruth of the beefalo, a
cross between the American bison and standard beef varieties.

Has anyone heard about this hybrid livestock, which is commercially raised?
One of the better known breeds is called limosin.

Being that both a bison and standard beef are kosher, I don't see any
problem with eating a cross of the two.


From: <Jsph26@...> (Yussie Englander)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:28:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Calling a Jesuit Teacher Father

regarding chaim shapiro in mail jewish vol.42 #83
> he asks: One of my Profs at my new school, a Jesuit University, is a
> priest.  I've been informed that although he has a Phd he will not
> respond to Dr. as he wants all his students to call him father.  What do
> I do?

There is nothing wrong with calling a priest "father". It is a
title. Just like, l'havdil, a non jew calling a Rabbi, with a phd,
"Rabbi". In fact you probably should call him father, since that is what
he wants, out of respect.  But, as always, contact your local orthodox
rabbi for a halachik opinion.

-Yussie Englander


From: <agross@...> (Aaron Gross)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:53:01 +0200
Subject: Calling professors "Father"

In V24N83, Chaim Shapiro asks:
> One of my Profs at my new school, a Jesuit University, is a
> priest.  I've been informed that although he has a Phd he will not
> respond to Dr. as he wants all his students to call him father.  
> What do I do?

My father is a Professor and he prefers to be called "Professor" instead
of "Doctor" since the value of a PhD has diminished in the last 30
years.  Will the priest answer to "Professor"?

Another solution is to simply avoid the personal address altogether.  I
once took a course from my father and it was kind of absurd for me to
raise my hand and say "Dad,..." (too familiar) or "Professor Gross, ..."
(others in the class knew I was his son and it would have been seen as
silly).  So, I simply waited for him to address me, "Yes, Aaron?"  And
then I would simply start with my question.


From: Meylekh Viswanath <viswanat@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:24:06 -0400
Subject: Creation Ex Nihilo

I recently read in B. Netanyahu's book on the Abravanel, that the notion
of creation ex nihilo was taken from the Christians, or at the very
least, the development of the idea in Jewish thought was heavily
influenced by Christian thought.  Apparently, there are no Jewish
sources before Origen and other Christians who insisted on this idea.

 I heard from a learned friend, that not all rishonim hold with creation
ex nihilo, yesh me ayin.  Does anybody have any idea who might hold
against creation ex nihilo?
 What might be a possible alternative acceptable Jewish belief (whether
or not anybody holds like it; i.e. a belief that does not violate other
major Jewish beliefs, like hashem ekhod).  And does anybody know of a
Jewish source BCE?

Meylekh Viswanath
P.V. Viswanath     Voice: (914) 773-3906  Fax: (914) 773-3920
Lubin School of Business, Pace University, 861 Bedford Rd., Pleasantville,
NY 10570
Email: MAILTO:<viswanat@...>         WWW: http://library.pace.edu/~viswanat


From: <ohayonlm@...> (Lisa Halpern)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:21:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: mazal tov

 With great gratitude to Hashem Eric and I are delighted to announce the 
birth of our daughter Avigayil Nehama bat Hillel David (Halpern).  She 
arrived 3:56 Shabbat morning parshat ki teitze.
 Avigayil is named to honor the memories of my maternal grandmothers, and 
our friends Matt Eisenfeld z'l and Sara Duker z'l, who were killed on the 
1st #18 bus bombing earlier this year.
 Please join our tefillot that she will grow to torah, chuppah and ma'asim 
tovim, and love of am and eretz yisrael.
-Lisa Halpern


From: Joseph P. Wetstein <jpw@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:08:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Modern Orthodox

I did this a few years back, and was asked to compile the results anew
and post them...

For those of you out there who consider yourselves MODERN ORTHODOX (MO),
and practice orthodoxy to the MO style with MO hashkafos [ed:
philospohy], please write to me and describe, in your own words, what
about what you are doing makes it "Modern Orthodox" as opposed to
anything else.

Are there certain mitzvos that you are more or less careful about? 

Did you attend any particular yeshiva that you consider to be more
'modern' than others?

Does it involve a philosophy in raising children?

Does it involve your profession? your education?

What else makes what you do MO as opposed to anything else (i.e.
Yeshivishe, Traditional, Conservadox, Charedi, et al.)

Please only answer if this applies to you! 

Thank you for participating and taking the time to write!

Yossi Wetstein


From: <ar943@...> (Richard Flom)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:40:48 -0700
Subject: Monkfish

In Vol. 24, #84, Stephen Slamowitz wrote:
>Does anyone have any idea as to whether monkfish is kosher?  I have
>heard conflicting opinions.

My recollection is that monkfish does not have scales.  The book _The
Jewish Dietary Laws_, published by the Rabbinical Assembly in 1982,
contains a list of kosher and non-kosher fishes, and identifies monkfish
as non-kosher.

Richard A. Flom (Abba Reuven ben Menachem Mendel) - <ar943@...>
University of Judaism - Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies, Class of '99


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:43:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RAMBI Citation Search System

Does anyone know how to get software that will let a person run a search 
on the Israeli citation search system called rambi?

I would very much appreicate any help.

Michael Broyde


From: <Finkelmans@...> (Eliezer Finkelman)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:00:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Shoes and Prayer

Oh, one more point, which my wife just brought to my attention.  Rambam
explitly makes wearing shoes for prayer dependent on local custom: "One
should not stand in prayer . . . barefoot, where the local custom is not
to stand in the presence of the great without shoes" (Laws of Prayer


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 06:20:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Trapping an Animal

I'm afraid I don't understand what halachic problem there is in trapping
deer or cows unless it's Shabbat (when it's prohibted to do shechita
anyway) or Yom Tov (since refrigeration, I don't think anyone does
shechita on Yom Tov, either).


From: Anonymous
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:41:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Truthfulness

I have recently had to work with several attorneys.  Many are observant
Orthodox Torah Jews.  To my surprise, none seemed reticent to stretch
the truth for the purpose of gaining legal advantage.  Now, I know that
a lot of law is a matter of bluster and bluff.  We have all seen
attorneys such as those involved in the O.J. case, who were willing to
manipulate the truth.  Perhaps there are lawyers who will defend this as
necessary given our current adversary-based legal system.  My question
is not about how the average attorney behaves or feels they must behave,
but rather how this reality is dealt with halachically.

Are Jews halachically permitted to lie a little on their clients'
behalf?  If so, under what conditions?  To save a life? For convenience?
When that is what they believe is necessary to serve their client?  If
the client or court is Jewish or not Jewish?

What are the guidelines here?  Is it naive to expect a Torah Jew who
happens to be an attorney to be more careful than the average attorney
about leaving an accurate impression and telling the basic truth?

How do observant attorneys feel about this?



From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:34:58 -0400
Subject: Yetzer ra & King David's sin.

Russell J. Hendel gives (MJ 24#85) three examples to prove the
"impetuousness" of yetzer ra.

>Some simple examples might be the following: 1) Adam was allowed to eat
>from the Tree when Shabbath came..his sin was eating immediately
>(impetuously). 2) David was suppose to eventually marry Bath Sheva; his
>sin was taking her prematurely.  3) "Modern examples of sin"---doing
>something on Shabbath, Niddah, eating at a non kosher restaurant and not
>waiting to go home to eat...all point to the same thing: Doing something
>which will eventually become permissable but which is prohibited
>*now*. The reasons for calling "impetuousness" evil are clear since the
>impetuous person is acting more or less spontaneously without any
>control over his actions

Yet the example about the sin of King David with Bat Sheva is a bad one,
and probably disprove the whole point. If David did not arrange the
killing of Uriah, Bat Sheva's husband [yes, this is part of the sin
too!], she would not been available to David later. The attempted cover
up, by arranging for Uriah to go home and sleep with his wife, so that
the pregnancy could be attributed to Uriah, rather to the sinfull
product of David, is also part of the sin.  This is therefore not a case
that with time David could have had her, because presumably Uriah's
marriage could have outlived David. This is a case of intentional,
premediatated act by King David. David teshuvah according to the Book of
Shmuel "chata'ati" and according to Chaza"l, was complete. The facts of
the story are found in Shmuel Bet 11-12.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


End of Volume 24 Issue 97