Volume 25 Number 22
                       Produced: Fri Nov 22  2:12:04 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

30th day of Adar1
         [Shimmy Y Messing]
         [Seth Kadish]
Bar-Ilan CD-ROM Web Site?
         [Gershon Dubin]
Dogma in Judaism
         [Tszvi Klugerman]
G-d, Rational Thought, Time, Physical Limits and Paradoxes
         [Jay Cohen]
Gifted Children
         [Stanley Weinstein]
Hashem and Knowledge
         [Myron Chaitovsky]
Living in Galut
         [Eli Turkel]
Machala vs. Micheela
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Mariv Motse Yom kiper
         [David Herskovic]
Parsha problem
         [Alan and Sharon Silver]
         [Elozor Preil]
Switched Coats
         [Yussie Englander]
Trup Trivia
         [Akiva Miller]


From: <shimmy@...> (Shimmy Y Messing)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:38:00 EST
Subject: 30th day of Adar1

In m-j vol. 25 #12 Chaim Shapiro writes:

>	Adar 1 has 30 days.  The standard Adar has only 29.  Usually if
>a child is born in Adar 1 and his bar mitzvah is not during a leap
>year, the bar mitzvah is held on his birthday in the regular Adar.
>But, what if a child is born on the 30th of Adar 1 and his bar mitzva
>is not during a leap year?  Would his bar mitzvah be on the first of
>Nissan??  A similar question can be asked about the observance of

Mishna Brurah in chelek 6, hilchos taanis,under "dini nidrie taanis",  
Si'if 7 in the m"b 42 says that you commemorate a yertzheit on 1 of rosh
chodesh ADAR! Another source is Gesher Hachaim perek 32, ch. 10


From: <skadish@...> (Seth Kadish)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:35:05 GMT
Subject: Apology

        My apologies for prejudging Sol Schimmel in my recent comments.
Derekh eretz kadma la-Torah, and this should have been especially true
for my comments on mail.jewish.

Seth Kadish
Netanya, Israel


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:03:43 PST
Subject: Bar-Ilan CD-ROM Web Site?

Does anyone know of a website where we can do a lookup similar to that
available on the "Bar-Ilan" CD-ROM?


From: Tszvi Klugerman <KLUGERMANR@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 05:36:33 EST
Subject: RE: Dogma in Judaism

As an afterthought to the contributions of Ronald Cohen, David Charlop,
et al---

Can one be considered an observant Jew if he observes almost all mitzvot
except belief in God, ie. believes in for example Baal?

This came to mind as I remember reading about a movement in Israel of
messianic Jews who are "shomrei shabbat" but most clearly believe in
jesus. Do we define them by their actions, or by their belief?

any thoughts?

Tszvi Klugerman


From: <jlcohen@...> (Jay Cohen)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 23:57:20 -0500
Subject: G-d, Rational Thought, Time, Physical Limits and Paradoxes

It has been a welcome (sorely missed) experience these past three days
reading scores of mail-jewish messages (volume 25 numbers 10-16).

With so much said about paradoxes surrounding our (rather limited) human
understanding of the nature of G-d, I wanted to contribute something a
bit out of the ordinary.

For those who face these paradoxes and find their faith questioned (or
to those with children/adolescents whose recent exposure to modern
science has left them doubting "old wisdom", I commend to you/them a
book which had a substantial (and positive) impact on my adolescent
years -- allowing me to continue my faith/belief in G-d in the face of
the various scientific truths which I was learning in school.

Flatland, by Edwin A. Abbott.

Don't let the fact that it was written by a non-Jew nearly a hundred
years ago put you off.  It gave me (as a teenager) the ability to look
beyond the science that I was learning in school -- and permission to
retain the faith that I had learned/developed as a child.

Jay Cohen


From: Stanley Weinstein <stanwein@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:46:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Gifted Children

this is a very difficult area within jewish education.  we lived in
milwaukee and now in miami.  our daughter who recently graduated is
gifted.  the schools were unable to met her needs both secularly and
judaicly.  She is self motivated so she did a lot of studying on her own.
She took different test complied by the teachers and or asked them for
help when it was available.  The problem is more than academically it is
socially she didn;t have her peers, although she did have a lot of
friends.  we introduced her to the computer and what she could do and get
from it, which was a plus.  The best thingt we did was send her to CTY
summer programs.  CTY (Center for Talented Youths) is run by John Hopkins
and has programs thoughut the United States and abroad. I belive it
doesn't start till 5th grade, though.  You must communicate not only with
the principal of the school but also with the lay leadership and let them
know dealing with gifted children is as important as dealing with children
with learning disabilities.  What the school can benefit by promoting its
gifted children will only help in recruiting more students.  don't we all
think our children are gifted?
stanley weinstein


From: <MCHAIT.BROOKLAW@...> (Myron Chaitovsky)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:21 EST
Subject: Hashem and Knowledge

A quibble on 25:15, Kibi Hofman's response to 25:10 Richard Fiedler and
the problem of whether Hashem can do the "undoable".  Despite the common
translation, Pirkei Avot does NOT say that all is forseen and that
humans have free-will. Tzafui, I am reliably informed, is never used in
Mishnaic Hebrew to mean anything other than seen.  This passage is
saying that the video camera is running (there is an Eye that sees all)
but humankind is free to do as it wishes...  with accounting to come
later, of course.  This changes none of Kibi's analysis of the point at


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:11:04 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Living in Galut

    The shelah (Rav Yesahayu Horowitz 1560-1630 Poland & Israel)
condemns those who build fancy homes outside of Israel (in eretz
hatumah). He says that such houses are meant as a legacy for ones
children and later generations and so shows a lack of faith in the


From: Yeshaya Halevi < <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:56:13 -0500
Subject: Machala vs. Micheela

Shalom, All:
     Yisrael Medad (<isrmedia@...>) writes <<...Esav *took*
his wife, thus being an obedient son even though he wasn't explicitly
told to do so.  Perhaps that is why the Medrash comments that his wife's
name was Machlat, indicating that Esav did some sort of repentance and
therefore [some of?] his sins were forgiven - from the root "mchl">>
       Whoa! Let's not forget that in Hebrew Machlat would mean "the
sickness of," and derive from "machala," literally meaning sickness,
which gives an entirely different spin to this.  Similarly, Ruth's
sons-in-law were named Machlon and Chilyon, both of which are also
linguistically connected to "sickness" -- and appropriately so, since
they died early.
       Furthermore, if you want to connect Esav's wife to the word
micheela, meaning forgiveness, we have to stretch even more, because
that word has the letter Yod in it, while machala (sickness) does not;
and neither does the name of Mrs. Esav, Machlat.
       Now here it gets even more interesting. The letter Yod is also
associated with God's name, and maybe we can make our own drasha about
the connection between micheela (forgiveness; with a yod) and machala
(sickness; without a yod).
        Maybe Yisrael Medad's Medrash has a point we overlooked.
Consider: this woman, Machlat, is the daughter of Yishmael.  Both
Yishmael and Esav harbored some ill feeling towards their brothers
(Yitschak and Yaakov, respectively). Both Yishmael and Esav reconciled
with their brothers -- Yishmael and Yeetschak at Avraham's funeral,
says a Midrash, and Esav and Yaakov in the Torah, Parshat Vayeeshlah
(Genesis 34).  However, it seems the reconciliation was not a full one
because both the descendants of Yishmael and Esav have warred with the
descendants of Yitschak and Yaakov.
        Why was the reconciliation not complete? Because Yishmael's and
Esav's understanding of God -- the "Yod Factor" was incomplete.  And
that was enough to turn a forgiveness (micheela) into a sickness
   Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)


From: David Herskovic <100114.750@...>
Date: 14 Nov 96 21:43:23 EST
Subject: Mariv Motse Yom kiper

I am a newcomer to this list and I would like to say thank you to the
moderator and the subscribers for this wonderful place. Tslach U'Rechav!

Regarding the Motsei Yom Kiper Mariv I think whatever answer will be put
forward it will never beat the kind of riddle in the question which is
not really a question at all.

But I will try a galitsyaner pshetel. We say Selach Loni in the plural
which indicates we are not praying solely on behalf of ourselves but on
behalf of Klal Yisroel of whom there are many who did not fast.

Relevant to this is the story in the Gemore of an amoyre who met
Moshiach on Yom Kipur and asked why do you not come on a day like
this. To which Moshiach's reply was, 'how many girls were today
impregnated in Nahardoe?'

But despite of this the kashe can be asked according to Reb Yehudah who
is of the opinion that 'Etsumoy shel yoym mechaper' (The very day bring
about forgiveness) so even those who do not fast are also forgiven so
why do we say Selach Lonu. And bishloyme Selach Lonu we might be able to
get away with because until we reach it there is time to sin but what
about Vehu Rachum which is uttered literally the day is out?

The humility answer given by some is definitely a moral to be taken and
goes in line with a vort by some Chasidic Rebbe who explained the reason
for reading the parshe of forbidden relationships on Yom Kipper
afternoon. It is lest anyone think that he has become immortal by
fasting and sitting all day in Shul, this portion of the Torah is read
to remind him that he is merely human and subject to all nature's

David Herskovic


From: Alan and Sharon Silver <psg@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:23:49 +0100
Subject: Parsha problem

Help !! Can anyone solve this ...

Beraishis 11:30         Soro Imainu was barren (ein lo volod)
Gemorah Yevamos 64b     on the above possuk - she had no womb
Beraishis 18:11         Soro Imainu had stopped menstruating (see Rashi)

If she did not have a womb, how could she have stopped menstruating ? If
you answer that the moloch Refuel "gave" her a womb when he visited (as
one of the three "men"), then this means that she must have started
menstruating and then stopped on the same day, which is too fast for a
period. Even if you say that she started when Avrohom Oveinu had his
bris, this was only three days later which is still very fast, apart
from which so she could not have known that she had stopped so soon.

Any answers would be gratefully appreciated,



From: <EMPreil@...> (Elozor Preil)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:11:58 -0500
Subject: Riddle

I just heard a great riddle from Leon Isaacson (Teaneck), and I'd like to
share it with The List:

Name something that a Kohen can see and a Yisrael can see, but a Levi will
never see.

Kol tuv,
Elozor Preil


From: <Jsph26@...> (Yussie Englander)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:59:56 -0500
Subject: Switched Coats

Chaim: It is kind of funny that you asked this question. On Friday
nights i coordiante/go to a shiur in my shul that is given on the
teshuvos of Rav Moshe Feinstein. My Rabbi, who gives the lecture,
haapened to pick a teshuva from Rav Moshe that contained this
question. The Teshuva is contained in Chailek Ches of the set of Igros
Moshe, this is the Chailek put out by Rav Moshe's Grandson. In the
teshuva, I believ Rav Moshe writes, that if you know for a fact that the
owner of the coat that is left is the one that took your coat, then it
is permissible to "borrow" his coat until the two of you can exchange
coats. I will look up the exact place of the teshuva, and if necessary
correct myself if i am mistaken on the information i just gave you.  

All the best!!!!!!

-Yussie Englander


From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:05:35 -0500
Subject: Trup Trivia

Some background information: One of the most common of the musical notes
used in public Torah readings is called an "esnachta". It looks much
like an upside-down "Y", and is placed below a word. As punctuation, I
perceive its function as very similar to a semicolon. Almost every verse
I've seen, regardless of length, has exactly one esnachta.

Trivia questions:
1) There are many three-word verses which have no esnacha, and a few
longer ones as well. What is the longest verse to have no esnachta?
2) Is there a verse anywhere which has more than one esnachta?
3) I am pretty sure that there are several examples of two-word verses,
in the Aseres HaDibros if nowhere else. But are there any others?

I do not have answers to any of the above. Keep those cards and letters
coming in, folks.

Akiva Miller


End of Volume 25 Issue 22