Volume 25 Number 25
                       Produced: Tue Nov 26 22:49:02 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Confessing Past Sins (was Maariv After Yom Kippur)
         [Carl Sherer]
Gifted Children
         [Sue Kahana]
Gifted children -- the replies
         [Donnie Stuhlman]
Hassidic Jewry in Italy
         [Julien Bauer]
Living In galut
         [Eli Turkel]
Mazel Tov and Shtrymloch
         [Chaya Liba Kates]
Mi Sheberach for the Sick
         [Yisrael Medad]
Minhag Avotanu
         [Danny Schoemann]
Source for Bais Shammai after Moshiach
         [Jamie Leiba]
Trup Trivia
         [Jerrold Landau]
Was Esav a Rasha?
         [Jeff Loewenthal]
When Modesty and Economic Rights Collide
         [Israel Rosenfeld]
Zionist phrase
         [Andrea Penkower Rosen]


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:55:00 +0000
Subject: Confessing Past Sins (was Maariv After Yom Kippur)

Ken Miller writes:

> My only problem with this idea is that I have seen in several places
> (yeah, but can I find them? nooo...) that on Yom Kippur one should NOT
> repent for the sins of a prior year because it demonstrates a lack of
> faith in Yom Kippur's power of atonement. If that is so, then what is
> the status of the period between Yom Kippur and Shmini Atzeres? Can we
> do Tashlich or not?

I think that the Rambam, at least, would disagree with that statement.
The Rambam in Hil. Tshuva 2:8 explicitly states that one should confess
on Yom Kippur sins that he has already confessed on previous Yom
Kippurs.  Moreover, the Rambam in Hil. Tshuva 1:4 lists categories of
sins for which Yom Kippur does *not* atone; only R"L suffering or death
may atone for them.

Thus if Chazal tell us that the final gzar din (decree) is not sealed
until Hoshana Rabba, I don't think there is any problem with continuing
to do tshuva and pray for forgiveness until then.  But so far I have not
been able to find any sources for saying Tashlich after Yom Kippur - my
guess is that they do exist, but that my sforim library is not complete
enough to have them.

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: Sue Kahana <sue@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:02:57 -200
Subject: Re: Gifted Children

We live in Israel, and here, the school system as a whole, and the
school that our younger children learn in in particular (Orot Etzion in
Efrat) are very aware of the needs of the gifted child, within the
framework of a religious education.

The Board of Education in Jerusalem tests ALL 2nd grade students, both
in Jerusalem itself, and in the periphery (Gush Etzion, Emek HaYarden,
Ma'aleh Adumim, etc.).  unless a school specifically requests that their
students not be tested.  After a screening test, about 10% are tested in
a more thorough fashion, and those who are declared gifted have a range
of programs available, from a one day a week program with gifted
children from all over the area, to an after school program, to a
program run by the child's own school or local regional council.

 In addition, there's a program run by Hebrew University, which starts
at the pre-k level, and children have a one day a week after school
activity, if they are recommended by their teachers, and pass a
test. The level required for this program is something like 10th
percentile, while the one day a week program is 3rd percentile.

 This may be another reason to consider Aliya.

Sue Kahana, Systems Administrator
Hadassah University Hospital


From: <ssmlhtc@...> (Donnie Stuhlman)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:48:16 -0600
Subject: Gifted children -- the replies

A few days ago I posted a message requesting parents of gifted children
to contact me.  I received a lot of wonderful replies that I would like
to summarize.

1. Replies came from Israel and the US.  

2. All said that Jewish schools are either unwilling or unable to help
the gifted students.  Schools do not deal very well with students at the
top or the bottom of the spectrum.  According to my mother's research,
schools i.e. teachers and administrators, need more training in the
diversity of students.  They must learn how to deal with students who
learn differently than the "norm."

3. Gifted students learn on their own, but need guidance and direction
to systematize the understanding of the world.

4. Gifted students exhibit behaviors that are not always accepted in
schools.  Frequently their minds are on a different dimension than the
rest of the class.  Sometimes the outward manifestation of this mind
play is satisfactory for the classroom and sometimes not.

5. All my replies wanted to keep in contact and to share experiences.

6. Some requested more information about the schools in Chicago.

Since Mail-Jewish is not the forum for this kind of discussion, I
request that all those who are interested in a discussion group forward
their e-mail addresses to me.  I will co-ordinate an informal list and
send out information as it comes my way.

I believe that gifted children are a treasure that we must carefully
guide to a productive adulthood.  They can be the next scholar, leader,
or businessman who will do great things for our world.

Donnie Stuhlman

Disclaimer:  This is a personal post and has nothing to do with HTC or the Saul Silber Library.  Send replies to: <DDStuhlman@...>
Hebrew Theological College, Saul Silber Memorial Library
7135 N. Carpenter Road, Skokie, IL  60077
847-982-2500(voice), 847-674-6381(fax), voice mail: 847-674-5518
email: <ssmlhtc@...>


From: Julien Bauer <bauer1@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:10:14 +0200
Subject: Hassidic Jewry in Italy

I would appreciate receiving any information about Hassidic presence in
Italy, history, activities, past or present.  The name and address of a
contact would be welcome.
 My E-mail address is: <bauer1@...>
Prof. Julien Bauer. 


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:33:48 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Living In galut

    The shelah (Rav Yesahayu Horowitz 1560-1630 Poland & Israel)
condemns those who build fancy homes outside of Israel (in eretz
hatumah). He says that such houses are meant as a legacy for ones
children and later generations and so shows a lack of faith in the



From: <karena@...> (Chaya Liba Kates)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:15:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Mazel Tov and Shtrymloch

 First I am annoucing my engagment.  Yesterday, yud gimmel Kislev,
Pinchas Dovid Zuber and I (Chaya Liba Kates), signed (or were signed for
(-:) our t'naim.  The chassuna will IY"H be in Yerushalayim on yud ches
Shvat (January 26) but if, chas v'shalom, moshiach has not come yet the
chassuna will be in Boston.

I have been in New York, far away from my computer so if the shtrymal
question is no longer relevant I am sorry, but in case it is I have some
personal experience with this topic.  My chussin and I were shtrymal
shopping in Brooklyn last week.  They are still individually hand made
and we did not come across any made out of anything other than fur.  His
is "Japanese Mink" since that is what his father wears, but you can get
regen (rain) sytrymloch made out of (or so they say and so they smell)
rats hair.  Maybe the men are teasing but if you smelled them wet you
might just believe it too.  Shtrymloch last.  My chussin's father's
shtrymal has had the inside redone once since he first started wearing
one, over twenty years ago... but besides that it is the same shtrymal.
He says the key to keeping them nice is putting it away in the shtrymal
box properly.  I hope so!  They are not as expensive as I was lead to
believe, and they last much longer than a hat, in most cases.  My
chussin says that it is heavy and uncomfortable, and after holding one,
and knowing the lines they leave on foreheads I can only think how much
more comfortable a shaytle is (-:
				    Liba __/\__
					\ /  \ /
					   \/	<Karena@...>


From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 18:04:37 PST
Subject: Mi Sheberach for the Sick

Having just been elected to our synagogue board, one of the questions we
are dealing with is the prayer for the sick.  Some think it is getting
out of hand and becoming a "tircha", a bother.  Has any one out there
done any research or knows of recent responsa about whether it must be
said while the sefer torah is open or can it be said when the sefer is
being rolled up?  what is the degree of illness for which one says the
prayer?  must the name be said or can a generalized prayer be made
without specific references?

Yisrael Medad
Ramat Shmuel Synagogue, Shiloh


From: Danny Schoemann <Dannys@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:17:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Minhag Avotanu

On 24 Nov 96 at 12:56, Menashe Elyashiv wrote:

> The machloket on Teffilin on H.H. probably goes way back to the Tannaim! 

My father once pointed out to me that interstingly enough you will
notice that those places where people work on Hol Hamoed they usually
put on Tefillin, and those places where it's more Mo'ed than chol they

Since Tefillin is an Ot [sign] and so is Yom Tov & Shabbes therefor we
don't put on Teffillin on YomTov & Shabbes.

However once the "community" goes to work you'll need the sign of
Tefillin again.

 Danny Schoemann                  /| 
 Setup Software Engineer,  Accent Software International, Ltd.
 28 Pierre Koenig St., POB 53063, Jerusalem 91530 Israel
 Tel +972-2-679-3723 Ext 273,  Fax +972-2-679-3731


From: Jamie Leiba <leiba@...>
Date: 25 Nov 1996 09:05 EST 
Subject: Source for Bais Shammai after Moshiach 


Does anyone know the source for why we will follow Bais Shammai after 
Moshiach ?


-- Jamie.


From: <landau@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 09:56:53 EST
Subject: Trup Trivia

In answer to Ira Rabin's 'trup trivia' question, the zarka segol notes
always come before the etnachta in a passuk.  They always appear
together, although there may sometimes be two zarkas before a segol (I
believe in one place in tanach there are three).  'Shalshelet', one of
the rare notes, must also always be before the etnachta (except for
Tehillim, Iyov, Mishle), as it must be on the first word of a passuk.

Ira made reference to the rare notes of 'shalshelet' and 'yerach ben
yomo' (although we are in the season of the year where 'shalshelet' does
not seem so rare).  I have always been fascinated by these rare notes.
There are interpretations about the meaning of 'shalshelet' indicating a
wavering or lack of decisiveness on the part of the subject of the
passuk (Lot, Eliezer, Yosef, and Moshe Rabbeinu respectively).  Does
anyone know if there are any similiar interpretations for the other
three rare notes 'mercha kfula', 'yerach ben yomo', 'karne parah'?  I
have never seen any, but would be most fascinated to hear of any
interpretations that anyone has seen.  It seems that 'mercha kfula'
simply takes the place of a 'tevir' on occasion.  In 16 places in
tanach, 'yerach ben yomo' and 'karne parah' come together.  There seems
to be an overabundance of them in Nechemya, for some reason.  The only
explanation I have heard is that the trup was handed down to Moshe
Rabbeinu on Har Sinai along with the Torah (this would not apply to
Neviim and Ketuvim, it seems).  However, the trup is known to add
meaning to the text, and I do suspect that there is more to these rare
notes than that explanation.

Jerrold Landau


From: Jeff Loewenthal <btgpraha@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:10:55 +0100
Subject: Re: Was Esav a Rasha?

In response to the question of whether or not Esav was a Rasha (wicked
person) we need to have an exact definition of Rasha. While I do not
know this preceise definition, I can say that most everyone performs
both good and evil actions. This includes Esav.

Finding evil deeds of Esav is no problem. If we recall the story of his
selling of his birthright to Yakov, Esav explains that he is exhausted
and says, "Behold, I am going to die, so what is my birthright to me?
(loose translation)" A medrash explains Esav's condition by saying that
Esav had just committed several crimes in a nearby city (rape and murder
among them) and now the inhabitants of that city were chasing him.

On the other hand, Esav shows great respect for his father. When
Yitzchak calls him, he answers "hineni" Here I am (to do whatever you
request). Even in a complete rage, he suspends his revenge on Yakov
until after his father dies.

Jeff Loewenthal


From: Israel Rosenfeld <iir@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:43:46 +0200
Subject: Re: When Modesty and Economic Rights Collide

> From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
> Michael and Abby Pitkowsky along with Carl and Adina Sherer recently
> (e.g. Vol 25-#19) discuss the "propriety" of making stewardesses "only
> male" on El Al flights (apparently for reasons of Tzniuth).
> Returning to El Al and their stewardesses: It is totally contrary to
> halachah and Jewish hashkafa to interfer with a women's right to earn a
> living...

To set the record straight, hasidei Breslov charter 10 flights once a
year from Israel to Ukraine for Rosh Hashannah.  The people who fly sign
up beforehand and are all male.  It was their request that only stewards
serve them,
 The customer gets what he pays for, no?

As for the stewardesses, these are charter flights, so their salaries
are not effected.
 Behatzlacha raba.

Israel Rosenfeld


From: Andrea Penkower Rosen <apr@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:59:31 -0400
Subject: Zionist phrase

Does anyone know a specific source and/or date for the phrase used by the
Zionists under the leadership of Ben Gurion and company: HaMedina Baderech
(The State in the Making)?

Andrea Penkower Rosen


End of Volume 25 Issue 25