Volume 25 Number 29
                       Produced: Fri Nov 29 10:37:36 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Brachot on Bein Adam LeHavero
         [Rafi Stern]
Canned Cranberries and Bishul Akum
         [Michael J Broyde]
Compromise with Secular Jews
         [Eli Turkel]
Gifted Children (2)
         [Rose Landowne, Sharon First]
Gifted Children: Lets Produce Them!
         [Russell Hendel]
Kosher birds: Turkey?
         [Jacob Levenstein]
Mi Sheberach For The Sick
         [Moshe Rosenberg]
Wells in Parshat Toldot
         [Carl Sherer]


From: Rafi Stern <iitpr@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:24:04 -0800
Subject: Brachot on Bein Adam LeHavero

A reason I have heard why there are no Brachot for Mitzvot Bein 
Adam LeHavero is that there is a certain self-satisfied 
smugness of saying a Bracha "Asher Kidishanu" on giving 
Tzedakka, etc which would be rather self defeating.

Rafi Stern
The Israel Institute of Transportation Planning and Research
Tel:972-3-6873312   Fax:972-3-6872196 
Email: <iitpr@...>


From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:38:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Canned Cranberries and Bishul Akum

A writer recently asked about eating canned cranberries, and the
resulting problems of bishul akum.  There is a famous letter from Rav
Nata Greenblatt writing in the name of Rav Moshe Feinstein that was
published in the OU kashrut journal named Masorah in which Rav Moshe
endorses the theory that when the factory is very far away from the end
users and there is no chance that the ones who make the food will meet
those who eat it, there is no problem of bishul akum.  (My notes
indicate that it is in volume 7, but I am not sure).  Rav Y.Y. Weinberg,
in Seredia Ash, also agrees with this and so do other poskim.

This is one of the major disputes amoung various kashrus organizations
as to whether one should rely on this.

Michael J. Broyde


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Subject: Compromise with Secular Jews

      I would like to ask for opinions on both a halakhic and haskafa
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:14:24 +0200 (IST)
(philoshpic?) problem that bothers me.

     The basic question is whether one is allowed to make compromises
with non-religious Jews in order that we live together in semi-harmony.
Compromising means allowing, or at least not protesting, activities that
we object to. On the other hand not compromizing means constant fights
and possibily an eventual split. While American Jewry might survive such
a permanent split Israeli Jewry obviously cannot.
To demonstrate the problem I shall give several examples. However, I am
interested in the principle not just the examples.

1. The JCC in an American community has non-kosher affairs and also on
   shabbat. They offer the orthodox rabbi to only use kosher food on
   condition that he drop his objections to shabbat affairs.

2. A university is willing to open a synagogue on condition that it be
   open to all Jewish groups including reform services. Is it better
   to decline the offer because one can daven without a synagogue.

3. In the recent fights over closing of Bar Ilan street in Jerusalem it
   was suggested that in return transportation be provided to secular
   Jews on shabbat or else that some other place be opened on shabbat
   as 'compensation" for closing the street. This was turned down by the
   haredi representatives. They claimed that they cannot agree to anything
   that increases the desecration of shabbat. Bottom line they are allowed
   to make demands but are not allowed to give anything.

   In my home town (Raanana) relations between religious and nonreligious
   Jews are cordial (far from perfect). In the center of town everything
   is closed on shabbat and everything is kosher. However, in the 
   industrial area and at the edge of town stores are open on shabbat and
   one place serves non-kosher food. I have heard from Rav Kook of
   Rechovot the comment that he is glad he doesn't live in Jerusalem as
   he has the opportunity of making gains without constant battles.
   It is interesting to note that McDonald's restuarant is kosher in
   Raanana and Rechovot but not in Jerusalem!

   Hence, does the mitzva of "tochacha" (admonition) and "lifne iver"
(not encouraging a sin) prevent the religious community from entering into
compromises that allow the two sides to live together?

   I recent heard a comment that in Jerusalem there will be a majority 
of religious Jews in the near future. Nevertheless, they cannot choose a
religious mayor. After all how could a religious mayor arrange a budget
for secular schools that teach forbidden things? He probably could not
give money to Hebrew University. He certainly could not continue the 
payments to many cultural centers that operate on shabbat. Thus, if the 
religious population is 49% they are entitled to 49% of the services. 
However, if the secular population is 49% they are not entitled to any 
service that violates halacha. Of course, a completely different problem 
is the care of the many churches in the old city. 

    We seem to be in a position in which we can have demands. The worst
position is to be in charge when we would have to deal with the demands
of others.

Eli Turkel    <turkel@...>


From: <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:25:12 -0500
Subject: Gifted Children

 Just wanted to mention that there is a traditionally Jewish school in
Manhattan which was created to meet the needs of gifted children, though
it accepts children who are not technically gifted, but well motivated
as well.  Beit Rabban currently runs from Kindergarten through 4th
grade, and adds a grade each year.  Contact through <Drisha@...>

Rose Landowne

From: <SharnF@...> (Sharon First)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:36:45 -0500
Subject: Gifted Children

Regarding the recent mail-jewish posts on gifted children: I am writing
an article about how the needs of gifted children are met (or not met)
in our day schools and yeshivas.  If you are interested in commenting,
please contact me at <SharnF@...>

Sharon First


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:07:37 -0500
Subject: Gifted Children: Lets Produce Them!

Several postings (e.g. Stanley Weinstein V25 #23) deal with the subject
of how gifted children are and should be dealt with in the Jewish
Education system.  I wholehartedly agree with (1) raising the issue
(2)its importance and with (3) the constructive suggestions that have
come in so far.

I would like to add another dimension to the problem: So far it is
ASSUMED that children are either gifted or not---what I want to suggest
is that we have the CAPACITY to make gifted children and our efforts
should be so focused. In developing this theme I also want to touch on
another serious issue (which deserves a whole (mail jewish ?) discussion
in its own right)-- the place of women in Judaism and their "treatment".

[I'd say that there have been quite a few such issues in the past. Mod.]

Rather than develop the issue halachically or philosophically I will
suffice with 3 stories:

STORY 1: Before the four of us were born my mother was a school teacher.
One day a fellow teacher protested to the principal: "Why is Miss Hendel
always getting the more gifted class?."  "Oh no!", replied the
principal: "The average IQ in her class is the same as in the other
classes..but by the end of the year her class has an IQ increase of
about 20-30 points."

STORY 2: My mother frequently told us at the Shabbos Tisch stories of
how she "made" children gifted. Here is a simple one: "I was teaching
4th grade and I had a student with a 2nd grade reading level. Rather
than classify him as stupid I inquired and found he was interested in
airplanes. So I got him every book in the library I could on airplanes.
By the end of the year his reading level was 8th grade."

STORY 4: I recently had Shabbath dinner by some religious friends who
are sympathetic to Judaic issues on women's rights. The wife was reading
a book by Rebbitzen Blu Greenberg on the subject (which of course was
well written and copious with sources). Eyeing the book in her living
room I in passing commented that none of these books including the good
ones really give the religious side.  When I was asked to defend the
statement I explained that: "... for example, there are no books, TV
shows or magazines whose themes focus on mother heroes who continuously
strive to find new ways to stimulate their infant children and raise
their capacity to interact with the environment.  As an immediate
consequence, there are NO role models of CREATED motherhood--women who
actually created new dimensions of humanity in their children. It is no
wonder that without adequate role models of dynamic creative motherhood,
women are "bored" and seek to gripe about what halachah will and will
not allow them to do.

Wouldn't you like a world, I continued, where you can go over to your
girlfriends and share, not routine simchas and problems, but dynamic
creativity: `Oh did you hear what so and so did with her children...look
how this two year old is now behaving..what a brilliant idea, I must try
it myself.'"

I could go on but hopefully other people like myself who have had
excellent mothers can share their experiences. I conclude with the pithy
but sharp words of a master of language and nuances: Rabbi Samson
Raphael Hirsch: "Why are MOTHER (AyM) and IF (IM) the same word? Quite
simply, because they are the same concept, one in the human sphere and
one in the logical sphere: IF mother THAN child; IF no mother than no

Russell Jay Hendel, Ph.d., ASA, rhendel @ mcs drexel edu


From: Jacob Levenstein <levenstein@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:10:43 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Kosher birds: Turkey?

Art Kamlet wrote:

        In any case, since birds require a mesorah -- tradition -- to be 
        kosher, they are not kosher.

I believe this is correct. Therefore, how can we eat turkey? Are there any 
machmirim who will not eat turkey?

[Yes. This has been discussed on mail-jewish a number of times in the
past. This is the output from running a check on the Fullindex file for
mail-jewish for the word Turkey in a subject header:

	Bircas Kohanim, turkey [v22n25]
	Kamenetsky eats turkey? [v22n44, v22n48]
	Kashrut of Turkey [v22n29]
	Kashrut of Turkeys [v5n28]
	Thanksgiving and Turkeys [v5n41]
	Turkey [v5n30, v5n32]
	Turkey -- kosher? [v5n48, v5n52]
	Turkeys [v5n60, v5n67, v5n78, v5n83]


Jacob Levenstein
P.O. Box 4548, Jerusalem, 91044 Israel
Voice: +972-(0)2-5619006
Cellular: +972-(0)50999466


From: <rmoses@...> (Moshe Rosenberg)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 96 00:22:17 PST
Subject: Mi Sheberach For The Sick 

 In response to Yisrael Medad's posting about making a mi Sheberach for
the sick, at the Berman's shul in Rehovot Israel we made a major change
about 2-3 years ago to solve the mi sheberach's which got a bit out of
hand (tircha tzibur).
 It was decided by the board to make two Mi Sheberach's one for "CHOLIM"
and one for "CHOLOT" . At two different places during the reading of the
torah the gabbai calls out "Mi sheberach for cholim" (or "CHOLOT") and
one Mi Sheberach is recited however instead of using one name for the
choleh we use a list of cholim (that is regularly updated) plus any
additional names for cholim that is submited at the time from the
congregants. We have found this to be a respectable solution .

Moshe Rosenberg
E-mail:     <rmoses@...> (home)  cmr015.email.mot.com (work)
Telephone : 972-8-9475087 (home) 972-8-9361387 (home)
            972-3-6928808 (work) 972-50-235235 (car)


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:45:47 +0000
Subject: Wells in Parshat Toldot

Gary Coleman writes:
> 	Just a quick thought that might be applicable to our day.  When
> at the end of Shlish, Yitzchak's servents dig three wells, on the first
> two they have arguments with the shepards on the first two, but on the
> third well dug there was no argument.  As Chapter 26 verse 22 says, they
> called the third well "Rechovot" because Gd made room for all of us and
> we can be fruitful.
> 	If we understand the idea of "Maaseh Avot Simon L'Banim", our
> forefathers actions are a sign to us, does this action mean that after
> fighting over Israel, we will finally realize that there is enough room
> there both for Jews and Palestenians and when we realize that we both
> shall prosper?

Chas v'Shalom (G-d forbid).  The application of "Maaseh Avot Siman 
L'Banim" on this verse is brought by the Ramban (Breishis 26:20).  He 
compares the three wells in the Parsha to the three Temples.  
Regarding the third one, he states (my translation), "And the third 
one he called Rechovos, that is the future Temple that will be built 
speedily and in our times and it will be done without arguments and 
quarrels, and Hashem will *widen* [emphasis mine] our borders, as it 
is written 'And when Hashem your G-d will widen your borders as he 
said etc.' which is in the future.  And it says regarding the Third 
Temple 'And it will widen and go around up and up', and we will be 
many in the land, that all of the nations will worship [G-d] 

It doesn't sound to me like that passuk is calling for us to split 
Eretz Yisrael with anybody.

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.
Carl and Adina Sherer


End of Volume 25 Issue 29